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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    Default Unlike Enlightened Countries, U.S. Still Allows Free Speech

    Why we still are cool:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/us...ll&oref=slogin

    “In much of the developed world, one uses racial epithets at one’s legal peril, one displays Nazi regalia and the other trappings of ethnic hatred at significant legal risk, and one urges discrimination against religious minorities under threat of fine or imprisonment,” Frederick Schauer, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, wrote in a recent essay called “The Exceptional First Amendment.”

    “But in the United States,” Professor Schauer continued, “all such speech remains constitutionally protected.”

    Canada, England, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech. Israel and France forbid the sale of Nazi items like swastikas and flags. It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France.

    Earlier this month, the actress Brigitte Bardot, an animal rights activist, was fined $23,000 in France for provoking racial hatred by criticizing a Muslim ceremony involving the slaughter of sheep.

    By contrast, American courts would not stop a planned march by the American Nazi Party in Skokie, Ill., in 1977, though a march would have been deeply distressing to the many Holocaust survivors there.
    Then there's this guy, who needs an enama:

    Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.

    “It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken,” Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, “when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack.”
    What a douche.
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  2. #2
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
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    12.17.17 @ 01:46 PM
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    i don't know Axx, I don't think allowing pro Nazi rallies is anything to brag about. I understand the greater issue of free speech but damn, sometimes free speech can be a very ugly thing. Wouldn't it be nice if we had free speech but some people just knew to shut the fuck up.

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk MF5150's Avatar
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    12.17.17 @ 11:57 AM
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    I really don't know how this is an argument in FAVOR of the United States....I'm sorry Axx...but I really don't.

    Believe me, in Canada we have to watch what we say because if we offend the ever growing minorities ( now starting to become the majority)...we can get into big trouble. And that pisses me off more than anything. But if you cross over into the realm of hate-speech...than...that is a whole other game in a whole other ballpark.

    It is a very fine-line, though. I mean if I make a joke about the prophet Mohammed (sorry for the spelling)...and somebody gets overly angry because they find it offensive....then they can kiss my ass. Just because they made a stipulation in their bible that, NOBODY can make fun of this...doesn't mean that when you're in MY home country....you need to get all pissy about it.


    But...if by calling somebody a Nazi, or a Ni**er, etc is in any way liberating...than....something is dearly wrong.
    Last edited by MF5150; 06.12.08 at 08:08 PM.
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  4. #4
    Atomic Punk WinterlessIceness's Avatar
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    07.05.17 @ 10:26 AM
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    I agree with both of you.

  5. #5
    On Fire 3_6_9 time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvH_316_5150 View Post
    I really don't know how this is an argument in FAVOR of the United States....I'm sorry Axx...but I really don't.

    Believe me, in Canada we have to watch what we say because if we offend the ever growing minorities ( now starting to become the majority)...we can get into big trouble. And that pisses me off more than anything. But if you cross over into the realm of hate-speech...than...that is a whole other game in a whole other ballpark.

    It is a very fine-line, though. I mean if I make a joke about the prophet Mohammed (sorry for the spelling)...and somebody gets overly angry because they find it offensive....then they can kiss my ass. Just because they made a stipulation in their bible that, NOBODY can make fun of this...doesn't mean that when you're in MY home country....you need to get all pissy about it.


    But...if by calling somebody a Nazi, or a Ni**er, etc is in any way liberating...than....something is dearly wrong.


    I 100% agree with you. If you say something and people get offended too bad for them but if you go preaching hate-toward any group-then that has crossed a line. I think France is ok on their stance because they were the front lines in WW2. Even 60 years later it must be painful. You have to keep things in perspective. We are not so high and mighty. Do you think people would allow an Osama Bin Laden parade that passed by the World Trade Center site? I think not. But I'm sure in other countries it would be no big deal.

  6. #6
    Unchained VF5150's Avatar
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    10.09.15 @ 09:03 PM
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    I think that is one thing we got right in the US. First you cant say anything racist, then you cant criticize national heros, then you can critisize the police, then the military, next thing you know its a dictatorship. Any limitation on free speech is moving in a bad direction. You cannot litigate morality.


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  7. #7
    Hang 'Em High janthraxx's Avatar
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    11.18.14 @ 07:57 PM
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    The idea of "free speech" is a misleading one. Sometimes we can say whatever we want...whether or not it is allowed to be heard is another matter altogether:

    http://www.fair.org/extra/9806/foxbgh.html

    This is just one of the more blatant examples of countless.
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  8. #8
    Hot sauce on everything Red's Avatar
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    12.06.17 @ 06:36 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by VF5150 View Post
    You cannot litigate morality.

    You can't legislate morality. But you can litigate the hell out of it. America loves litigation.

    Actually, you CAN legislate it, too, but then you have to enforce it upon those who ignore the legislation and the litigation and that leads to incarceration, at the expense of the public, through taxation. Which makes us a nation of frustration.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk WinterlessIceness's Avatar
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    07.05.17 @ 10:26 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red View Post
    Actually, you CAN legislate it, too, but then you have to enforce it upon those who ignore the legislation and the litigation and that leads to incarceration, at the expense of the public, through taxation. Which makes us a nation of frustration.
    That sounded almost latin, man

  10. #10
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    Default

    I have to say the article from the NY times is a bit misleading.

    Brigitte Bardot is the first case: The article calls her an animal rights activist, which is true, but this woman has spent the better part of the last few decades slamming all immigrants in France. She is married to the leader of an extremist right wing party in France and their combined vitriol is nothing short of staggering. This recent case, for many, was simply the last straw. Just google some of her comments. She really does preach hate.

    The Nazi rally in America : The date says it all. 1977. This is hardly a special case, especially in those times. Even today in most European countries, including the UK and Germany for example, far right groups, including Nazi parties, the British National Front and the like, are freely allowed to gather, make speeches and march. Hardline muslims preach about the infidel daily and it takes a call to violence before the authorities will act. See Abu Hamza (sp?) who was preaching sat outside his mosque on the streets of London with police all over, who could not do anything until he advocated violence.

    The swastika is banned in certain, though not many countries. It has become, by association, a symbol of hate and barbarity. Think about this though. If an individual in the US walked around with a flag with the twin towers and a plane flying into them and this image was celebrating the attacks, how long would this person be left untouched by the law (let alone other civilians).

    It works all ways too. When muslim protests about the Danish cartoons took to the streets in London, several were arrested and charged under hate crimes. Their protest was legal but a minority were encouraging the death of the journalists. One in particular who called for heads to be removed is sitting behind bars somewhere.

    This is just to do with the government imposed actions too. I would say that in Europe there is less danger of being sued by someone privately for saying something deemed offensive.

    The concept of free speech, of the giving of opinions is not exclusive to the US by any means. The very same standards apply in a lot of other countries too.

    It is a good idea.

    The concept of hate speech is an altogether different one. This is less about giving opinions and just promoting hatred and intolerance and whilst NOT widely enforced, it is a little safety check. A way of making sure that people do not simply go on the attack against another social/racial/religious group and to be arrested under the this law, you would really have to be utterly unreasonable and offensive.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  11. #11
    Baluchitherium
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    well im from england, a country that should have a huge pride in our heratage, we were once the greatest country in the world, masters of all we survey'd etc...but over the last couple of decades we have had our national identity taken away from us by buracrats, most of which dont even come from our country or even represent us...im talking about the european union....we are being forced to use the metric system (which most of us are totaly against) when france doesnt want illeagal imigrants or asylum seakers where do they send them??...England, and our government keeps them, houses them and gives them jobs.
    its not just foreign politicians though, a while ago we were told that we would be having an extra 60,000 migrant workers (for what reason i dont know theres plenty of people here wanting work, more than likely down to re-training) but how many do we get? (they finaly relesed these figures recently)
    over a million thats 940,000 more people than expected and put a massive strain on our economy and welfare system....and yet us bit have to deal with it, because if we complain we are called racists or nazi's.
    ecently a muslim cleric stated that he wants england to become a muslim state...he even said that it should be a muslim state and he was fine, but as soon as someone says anything against the muslims in this country theres riots and people get arested and imprisoned for mearly stating their minds and quite possibly the thoughts of a majority of the nation.

    i agree with the u.s. freedom of speach laws keep it up, and never loose your national identity and you pride, which is whats happened to england.
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  12. #12
    Good Enough VH Wahoo's Avatar
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    08.31.15 @ 02:01 PM
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    Muslim ‘No-Go Areas’ in Britain? Just Go There!

    tommywho5150, this ought to make you feel real good, then:

    "In February this year, Christian evangelists Arthur Cunningham and Joseph Abraham were doing what Christian evangelists do: handing out Bible extracts. They were stopped by a representative of the law, threatened with arrest if they carried on preaching in “a Muslim area,” and warned that they might get beaten up if they came back.

    Where did this incident take place? Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Pakistan, where Christian preaching is forbidden and apostates persecuted? No, this “Muslim area” was in Alum Rock, Birmingham, England. That’s right — England, cradle of free speech; England, a country with an established, if enfeebled, Church, and where seventy-five percent of citizens (at the 2001 census) describe themselves as Christian. The man who stopped the evangelists, calling their preaching a “hate crime,” was Naeem Naguthney, a police community support officer (PCSO), and a Muslim. Granted, a PCSO is not a full police officer, and has only limited powers of law enforcement. But which law was he enforcing? It looks suspiciously like Sharia."

    Read the rest here:

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/muslim-...just-go-there/

  13. #13
    Future's in the past....
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    11.03.17 @ 01:35 PM
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    Birmingham? Perhaps it's time for the hometown boys to put on a free concert there, maybe opening with Black Sabbath?
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  14. #14
    On Fire 3_6_9 time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VH Wahoo View Post
    tommywho5150, this ought to make you feel real good, then:

    "In February this year, Christian evangelists Arthur Cunningham and Joseph Abraham were doing what Christian evangelists do: handing out Bible extracts. They were stopped by a representative of the law, threatened with arrest if they carried on preaching in “a Muslim area,” and warned that they might get beaten up if they came back.

    Where did this incident take place? Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Pakistan, where Christian preaching is forbidden and apostates persecuted? No, this “Muslim area” was in Alum Rock, Birmingham, England. That’s right — England, cradle of free speech; England, a country with an established, if enfeebled, Church, and where seventy-five percent of citizens (at the 2001 census) describe themselves as Christian. The man who stopped the evangelists, calling their preaching a “hate crime,” was Naeem Naguthney, a police community support officer (PCSO), and a Muslim. Granted, a PCSO is not a full police officer, and has only limited powers of law enforcement. But which law was he enforcing? It looks suspiciously like Sharia."

    Read the rest here:

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/muslim-...just-go-there/
    Well, to be fair, if a Christian evangelist handed me a bible extract I'd probably beat him up too and I'm not even muslim.

  15. #15
    Future's in the past....
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    11.03.17 @ 01:35 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3_6_9 time View Post
    Well, to be fair, if a Christian evangelist handed me a bible extract I'd probably beat him up too and I'm not even muslim.
    I wouldn't do that, but I would throw something substantial at of of those Jehovah Witness' riding down the street on their bicycles.
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