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  1. #1
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    12.17.17 @ 09:58 PM
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    Roger Clemens ... Did He Use ? ? or Didn't He Use ? ?

    We want to believe Roger, but how can we?

    By JENNIFER FLOYD ENGEL Star-Telegram Staff Writer

    http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/473395.html

    What amounted to GameDay descended upon Capitol Hill for Wednesday's big showdown -- Team Clemens vs. Team McNamee.

    And this "rivalry" delivered on every bit of hype with scintillating talk of a bikini-clad nanny and a very Monica Lewinsky-ish saving of DNA evidence, accusations of drug dealing, tales of bloody butts, invented words such as "mis-remembered" and even a few giggles.

    How does Rog not know what a vegan is?

    About the only thing missing was a live ESPN set on Capitol Hill with raucous fans waiting for Lee Corso to slip on a McNamee or Clemens mask by way of predicting a winner.

    Good thing he took a pass.

    In what basically has devolved into a battle of credibility, determining a winner is unlikely. Certainly not anytime soon.

    He-said, he-said boils down to "Who do you believe?" Which, if Wednesday's hearing was any indication, boils down to who you plan to vote for in November.

    Clemens: "Let me be clear, I have never taken steroids or HGH."

    McNamee: "Make no mistake, when I told Sen. Mitchell I had injected Roger Clemens with performance-enhancing drugs, I told the truth."

    Obviously, one of these idiots just fibbed -- possibly perjured himself? -- to Congress.

    Whichever one is lying to Congress is in good company. Big tobacco immediately springs to mind, and my guess is congressmen probably do a little truth-bending from time to time. A few baseball players, too, if memory serves.

    Of course, Rog going Marky Mark and refusing to talk about the past was unlikely. He insisted upon this hearing, needed this to unsully his rep. I am not sure he accomplished anything.

    What I do know for sure is another baseball season begins with steroids once again commanding center stage. Can Barry Bonds avoid jail? Will the Department of Justice pursue perjury charges against Clemens? This is what amounts to baseball talk nowadays.

    And as an added bonus, we have politicians involved. Baseball, hot dogs, HGH and House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform just lacks that giddy, spring-training tone.

    Of course, the kids in D.C. were a little touchy about criticism that government surely had better things to do with its time and our money.

    We have troops on the ground and under fire in Iraq and Afghanistan, a subprime lending crisis and serious environmental problems in need of solutions and The House of Reps is trying to determine who was at Jose Canseco's barbecue 10 years ago.

    Typical Washington. Waste time. Waste money. Solve nothing.

    And when did steroids become a red state-blue state issue anyway? Because members of Team Dub seemed to side with Clemens, while Team Donkey seemed to have sympathy with McNamee.

    Mark me down with Rep. Elijah Cummings, who wrapped up a long day of hyperbole by saying, "If I walked in here and it was even-steven, you and Mr. McNamee, I must admit that the person I believe the most... is Mr. Pettitte."

    I want to believe Rog. I really do. But I don't. I think he's lying.

    His whole spiel had the feel of Raffy wagging his finger and we know how that ended. And whatever public-opinion points Clemens earned with his defiant denials -- in stark contrast to Marky Mark looking forward and Sammy Sosa no habla-ing English -- were undermined by pesky little facts and inconsistencies and things that torque the b.s. meter at every turn.

    McNamee injected Clemens' wife with HGH, in his house, but not him and without him knowing. Really? We have the smoking nanny, apparently literally, who admitted to spending the night at the disputed Canseco party with said wife and kids.

    And what nobody has explained to me is why McNamee truthfully informed investigators about giving steroids to Pettitte and Chuck Knoblauch, yet supposedly lied about Clemens.

    What I keep coming back to, though, is what possibly is Pettitte's motivation for lying?

    In a deposition, he stated unequivocally that his good friend, Clemens, had told him he used HGH. He loved and admired Clemens, and I highly doubt he did this without thoughtful consideration.

    I know Pettitte screwed up. What I admire is how he handled the aftermath.

    He told the truth.

    He did not hide like McGwire or equivocate like Bonds or fake like Sosa. This is the only way to get closure.

    There is no closure with Clemens. This is just starting, with talk of defamation suits and perjury charges starting almost immediately.

    ESPN provided postgame analysis, a la GameDay, except rather than having Keyshawn Johnson break down Randy Moss, we were treated to Roger Cossack explaining what exactly constitutes perjury.

    He confused me with some crazy talk about, if you throw out what Pettitte said, you'd believe Clemens. Which is kind of like Coach Wade and his insistence that "if you take away the playoff loss to the Giants, the Cowboys had a great season."

    Team Clemens tried hard Wednesday. But it looks to be overmatched by that whole truth thing.

    Look for Corso to don the McNamee mask anyday now.

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk jimmy812's Avatar
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    I think it's 'clear' that Clemens used. I always suspected him of using steroids, and I suspect a lot of other people were/are using as well. Names we haven't heard yet. Just because a name is not linked to the Mitchell Report doesn't mean they're innocent.

    Now for someone like Clemens it's a shame that it's come to this. He and Bonds were phenomenal players when they began their baseball careers. It seems like Clemens started using because he was becoming less effective as a pitcher as he was getting older, which is what happens to us in life.
    Bonds, IMO, saw what was happening with the HR race in '98, knew those guys were juiced, and figured he could be as dominant as them, if not more so. And he did.

    But it's also the guys that need that extra push just to get them into the Major Leagues. They're in the minor leagues doing moderately well, but they just need that little extra to put them over the edge. Now here is where a lot of people might frown at the poor decisions of these young men. But, if I was in their shoes, hook me up. You're talking the major leagues. You're talking big $$$. A young kid in his early 20's whose judgement isn't all that mature yet. I can't say I blame those guys.
    Not only that, but I had heard that at one time about half the guys in the league were using. If that's true, and you see your teammates are getting that extra juice, their game has picked up and there have been no repercussions (at that time), then why not get some yourself?
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  3. #3
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    Whether he did or didn't is almost irrelevant now. Public perception is going to rule the day unless things get proven/disproven in a court of law. I don't understand why Clemens insisted he have his day in Congress. After seeing that whole McGuire/Sosa/Palmero fiasco a couple of years ago, you'd think he'd opt to avoid being paraded in front of politicians who make their reputation by chopping people at the knees in these committee hearings. I thought he looked less than convincing. However, McNamee looked just as bad if not worse. Its a crap sandwich, no matter how you slice it.

    Personally, I think Clemens did do it if only because of what Pettite said.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy812 View Post
    I think it's 'clear' that Clemens used. I always suspected him of using steroids, and I suspect a lot of other people were/are using as well. Names we haven't heard yet. Just because a name is not linked to the Mitchell Report doesn't mean they're innocent.

    Now for someone like Clemens it's a shame that it's come to this. He and Bonds were phenomenal players when they began their baseball careers. It seems like Clemens started using because he was becoming less effective as a pitcher as he was getting older, which is what happens to us in life.
    Bonds, IMO, saw what was happening with the HR race in '98, knew those guys were juiced, and figured he could be as dominant as them, if not more so. And he did.

    But it's also the guys that need that extra push just to get them into the Major Leagues. They're in the minor leagues doing moderately well, but they just need that little extra to put them over the edge. Now here is where a lot of people might frown at the poor decisions of these young men. But, if I was in their shoes, hook me up. You're talking the major leagues. You're talking big $$$. A young kid in his early 20's whose judgement isn't all that mature yet. I can't say I blame those guys.
    Not only that, but I had heard that at one time about half the guys in the league were using. If that's true, and you see your teammates are getting that extra juice, their game has picked up and there have been no repercussions (at that time), then why not get some yourself?
    Good point. Thats what really gets me. I'm a life-long fan of the Giants and was there on opening day in 1993 when Bonds arrived with a vengence. Everyone knew he was a great player in Pittsburgh but seeing him light up the whole team that year in person was proof-positive he was something special. And every year after that, it was clear he was Hall of Fame material. He didn't need the home run records to solidify that. Sure, his career would have been over sooner had he not juiced and without the most cherished records in all of baseball. But, not only will he have a hell of a time getting into the HOF, those cherished records are, IMO, tainted. Now, with Clemens likely in that same category makes it hard not to be disgusted with the whole league.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk jimmy812's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by looper_guy View Post
    Personally, I think Clemens did do it if only because of what Pettite said.
    Yes, I agree. That, and McNamee's mention of injecting Clemens' wife with steroids. There is absolutely no reason to go there unless it's the truth. That seemed like a last resort nugget of truth he was holding on to until he absolutely needed to drop it.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by looper_guy View Post
    Good point. Thats what really gets me. I'm a life-long fan of the Giants and was there on opening day in 1993 when Bonds arrived with a vengence. Everyone knew he was a great player in Pittsburgh but seeing him light up the whole team that year in person was proof-positive he was something special. And every year after that, it was clear he was Hall of Fame material. He didn't need the home run records to solidify that. Sure, his career would have been over sooner had he not juiced and without the most cherished records in all of baseball. But, not only will he have a hell of a time getting into the HOF, those cherished records are, IMO, tainted. Now, with Clemens likely in that same category makes it hard not to be disgusted with the whole league.
    Hey! I was there on opening day in 1993 as well! I always tell people that it was the only time I've ever seen the Grateful Dead live when they sang the national anthem. It was a hell of a day. I remember Bonds' 3 run shot!
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by evans5150 View Post
    Hey! I was there on opening day in 1993 as well! I always tell people that it was the only time I've ever seen the Grateful Dead live when they sang the national anthem. It was a hell of a day. I remember Bonds' 3 run shot!
    That was an awesome day, especially considering that 1993 was almost the inaugural season for the St. Petersburg Giants .
    I was never happier to be going to that dump known as Candlestick. And having that Clarks, Williams, Bonds line-up was sweet.

  8. #8
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    Of course Roger did it. You have to be brain dead to think otherwise. McNamee is a snake, but DUH - you really think any trainers providing their guys with illegal drugs aren't? But, his story makes sense up and down the line. He's a worm, but he admits he's a worm, and he has no motive for lying, in fact all of his motivation points towards truth.

    As opposed to Clemens, who keeps changing his story, and not much of it makes any sense whatsoever.

    Frankly, what I'd like to see come of yesterday is an investigation into the GOP senators that were fawning over Roger and hammering McNamee. They were so out of place and out of line, it was just bizarre. Even the very conservative sports talk morning guy here, Jerry Callahan, was hammering "those brain dead Republican's", and he's as GOP is it gets.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by looper_guy View Post
    That was an awesome day, especially considering that 1993 was almost the inaugural season for the St. Petersburg Giants .
    I was never happier to be going to that dump known as Candlestick. And having that Clarks, Williams, Bonds line-up was sweet.
    Ugh...I know! I was really upset when the 1992 season ended and I wasn't sure what to think. I went to what was thought to be the last Giants/Dodgers game in San Francisco in 1992. The crowd was rowdy as hell and the place was almost packed. I'm very grateful for Magowan and the rest of the crew that helped save the Giants from going to St. Petersburg. I'm definitely looking forward to a new brand of baseball this year.
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  10. #10
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    Roger Clemens is a pathetic human being. He is as bad or worse than Barry. I think it's interesting watching Houston/New York/Boston go through the same emotions St. Louis went through when we discovered the truth about McGwire. First there's denial, then you make excuses, then you come to grips and realize your heroes are pieces of shit.

    Clemens is guilty. Everyone knows it, but there will always be some people who try to say "prove it" before they will condemn him.
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    I'm going to throw this question out there, why don't they just let everyone do it since half the players are anyway, make it even and see just how big and bad a player can get. Isn't it fighting a losing battle?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by loveevhsince79 View Post
    I'm going to throw this question out there, why don't they just let everyone do it since half the players are anyway, make it even and see just how big and bad a player can get. Isn't it fighting a losing battle?
    better to just have testing with some real penalities in my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by loveevhsince79 View Post
    I'm going to throw this question out there, why don't they just let everyone do it since half the players are anyway, make it even and see just how big and bad a player can get. Isn't it fighting a losing battle?
    Does anyone remember the "all steroids olympics" from Saturday Night Live about 15 years ago? There was a weight lifter who goes to lift the wieghts and his arms come off and are stuck to the barbell?
    Could we end up with pitcher who throws the ball and his arm goes with it?

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    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loveevhsince79 View Post
    I'm going to throw this question out there, why don't they just let everyone do it since half the players are anyway, make it even and see just how big and bad a player can get. Isn't it fighting a losing battle?
    Because people attempting to get there will start using it earlier and earlier. You already have high school kids screwing up their bodies because they think they can gain an edge. If you legalize it at the major league level, the usage will spread to people whose bodies aren't prepared for it.

    There is evidence to suggest no one's body is prepared for it. When Jose Canseco is 85 and pulling a Jack Lelane, then he can talk about how steroids have no ill effects. So far many users have died from the strain it puts on the heart. I'd hate to see what the alumni group would look like in 25 years if they took those steps. As it is right now, the alumni group may be a little thin in 10-15 years
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    Roger Clemens is a pathetic human being. He is as bad or worse than Barry. I think it's interesting watching Houston/New York/Boston go through the same emotions St. Louis went through when we discovered the truth about McGwire. First there's denial, then you make excuses, then you come to grips and realize your heroes are pieces of shit.

    Clemens is guilty. Everyone knows it, but there will always be some people who try to say "prove it" before they will condemn him.
    You can throw SF into that equation. 1st it was St. Barry Bonds, then it was "no, not Barry", then it was "he's never tested positive before", to the present where its "thank God he's gone".

 

 

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