Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25
  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    12.25.01
    Age
    53
    Location
    Carmel, Ca
    Posts
    7,954
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    You\'re Kidding,right?
    Last Online

    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Side Note For Argument On Canadian vs US Health System

    I was discussing Healthcare the other day with brother, who'd just finished school for Surgical Tech and he told me something I'd never heard before.

    One of the big reasons that Drugs are cheaper in Canada is that in the US, the Drug Companies have to deal with the FDA and DEA. Canada doesn't have anything like them. They have something called "Health Canada":

    http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/activit/index_e.html

    Also, when drugs in this country near or reach their expiration dates the Drug comapnies buy them back and then sell them to Mexico for dirt cheap, which is why Meds in Mexico are also cheap.

    To sum up, a primary reason that your meds are so expensive is....the United States Government.

    You can figure out the rest.
    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


    My Blog:

    http://axxman300tool.blogspot.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/axxman300

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    02.21.03
    Age
    52
    Location
    Mound Valley, Kansas
    Posts
    9,045
    Favorite VH Album

    5150, Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Dance The Night Away, Dreams
    Last Online

    12.14.17 @ 03:26 PM
    Likes
    39
    Liked 34 Times in 10 Posts

    Default

    Here's another side note: The State of California has more residents than the whole Country of Canada.

    The healthcare system here in the U. S. works just fine for me, as it does for most of the general population. Oh sure, I could do like Michael Moore and find a few extreme isolated cases, and make the point that our health care system sucks, but it would all be smoke and mirrors. Our health care system could use a tune up, but what some (Democrats for the most part) people want is a complete overhaul, and I don't know many people that would completely overhaul an engine when all it needs is some plugs and wires. Well, except for the dishonest mechanic that convinces you that your engine needs overhauled when all it needs is a tune up. In the health care debate, I'll let you decide who the dishonest mechanic is.
    "Viking - last to sleep, first to rise, last to leave, that's how the Nords of old rocked the house." ~ timmac in the 'Texas Linkers' thread talking about yours truly. :-)

  3. #3
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,154
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 06:39 AM
    Likes
    1,320
    Liked 6,702 Times in 3,721 Posts

    Default

    the reason meds are cheaper here is because of drug price controls that our government has. The Patented Medicine Prices Review Board reviews prices and places caps on patented products.

    The population of our country has nothing to do with why our health care system is cheaper then the US model. If anything it should make it more expensive as we have fewer people stretched over a larger land mass. The main reason why it's cheaper is profit. Your health care providers make a huge profit (that more then offsets any increased efficiencies they bring to the system) while ours make none.
    Last edited by It's Mike; 02.10.08 at 08:49 AM.

  4. #4
    Hang 'Em High
    Join Date
    06.17.03
    Age
    30
    Location
    New Brunswick Canada
    Posts
    6,980
    Favorite VH Album

    You name it
    Favorite VH Song

    See above
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 05:15 AM
    Likes
    310
    Liked 226 Times in 162 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by it's me View Post
    the reason meds are cheaper here is because of drug price controls that our government has. The Patented Medicine Prices Review Board reviews prices and places caps on patented products.

    The population of our country has nothing to do with why our health care system it's cheaper then the US model. If anything it should make it more expensive as we have fewer people stretched over a larger land mass. The main reason why it's cheaper is profit. Your health care providers make a huge profit (that more then offsets any increased efficiencies they bring to the system) while ours make none.
    Exactly.

  5. #5
    Sinner's Swing!
    Join Date
    10.19.03
    Location
    Lees Summit, MO
    Posts
    3,472
    Last Online

    10.27.17 @ 06:31 PM
    Likes
    2
    Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by it's me View Post
    Your health care providers make a huge profit (that more then offsets any increased efficiencies they bring to the system) while ours make none.
    Heaven forbid I make a living. I wouldn't expect someone to come to my house and fix a drain without paying them well, so why should someone who fixes a person not be compensated? Especially when required to go through college, grad school, residencies, rotations, etc.?

    Nationalized healtcare = Socialized healthcare

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk chefcraig's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.01.02
    Location
    A Confederacy of Dunces
    Posts
    19,370
    Last Online

    03.07.10 @ 06:18 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 10 Times in 9 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel View Post
    Heaven forbid I make a living. I wouldn't expect someone to come to my house and fix a drain without paying them well, so why should someone who fixes a person not be compensated? Especially when required to go through college, grad school, residencies, rotations, etc.?

    Nationalized healtcare = Socialized healthcare
    Charming. And completely missing the point. So what do you suggest, retired people who are in need of medicines yet can not afford them should go out at the age of 80 and work at Mcdonald's (providing that they could even be hired) in order to pay for them?

    Congratulations on your devotion to capitalism. Now work on your compassionate humanity.
    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
    George Bernard Shaw

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    12.25.01
    Age
    53
    Location
    Carmel, Ca
    Posts
    7,954
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    You\'re Kidding,right?
    Last Online

    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    My point was that the FDA and the DEA help drive up the price of meds in the United States and that if Canada had equivalent agencies of proportional size they'd pay more too.

    I would point out - again - that malpractice in Canada is heavily tilted towards the doctor than it is in the US. This also keeps rates low for Canadians but Canadian doctors cannot pass along malpractice insurance costs to their patient as American doctors and drug companies do. This hurts Canadians in some provinces, such as Ontario, where malpractice insurance rose 45% between 2001 and 2007, which has meant that many doctors have left this richest provice and left it with fewer specialists in orthopedics, obstetrics and neurosurgery.

    Maybe you Canadians can explain to we Americna simpletons how fewer Medical Specialists is GOOD for the people of Ontario.
    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


    My Blog:

    http://axxman300tool.blogspot.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/axxman300

  8. #8
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,154
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 06:39 AM
    Likes
    1,320
    Liked 6,702 Times in 3,721 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel View Post
    Heaven forbid I make a living. I wouldn't expect someone to come to my house and fix a drain without paying them well, so why should someone who fixes a person not be compensated? Especially when required to go through college, grad school, residencies, rotations, etc.?

    Nationalized healtcare = Socialized healthcare
    one of more insane posts I've read in a while. Our doctors are not working for free, they are well paid professionals. We (much like the just about whole western world) just have a system where everyone has access to health care through their taxes. No different then having access to the fire department or police serivces.

  9. #9
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,154
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 06:39 AM
    Likes
    1,320
    Liked 6,702 Times in 3,721 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
    My point was that the FDA and the DEA help drive up the price of meds in the United States and that if Canada had equivalent agencies of proportional size they'd pay more too.

    I would point out - again - that malpractice in Canada is heavily tilted towards the doctor than it is in the US. This also keeps rates low for Canadians but Canadian doctors cannot pass along malpractice insurance costs to their patient as American doctors and drug companies do. This hurts Canadians in some provinces, such as Ontario, where malpractice insurance rose 45% between 2001 and 2007, which has meant that many doctors have left this richest provice and left it with fewer specialists in orthopedics, obstetrics and neurosurgery.

    Maybe you Canadians can explain to we Americna simpletons how fewer Medical Specialists is GOOD for the people of Ontario.

    you make some very good points Axx.

    Our system, much like yours, is not perfect. The specialist situation in Ontario (while overblown by many) is a bit of a concern in the more rural areas of the province. One of the biggest problems we have is we have one tenth of the population of the states spread over a larger land mass - that makes delivering health care a very difficult thing at times. And having specialists in Ontario but a 5 hour drive from Toronto isn't an easy thing.

    Part of the reason meds are priced higher in the States is because of government interference but the main reason is simply because they can. They can't in Canada therefore they don't. They are still sold here since the Pharmaceuticals are still making outrageous profits, just not as outrageous as they would like.

    I don't know even enough about malpractice laws in Ontario to comment on that topic.

    I certainly don't consider Americans (and certainly you) to be simpletons - you usually make very good points in your posts. But I'll play along - having fewer medical specialists is not a good thing for Ontario.
    Last edited by It's Mike; 02.10.08 at 04:13 PM.

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk
    Join Date
    12.25.01
    Age
    53
    Location
    Carmel, Ca
    Posts
    7,954
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    You\'re Kidding,right?
    Last Online

    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    I'm sorry, I just get touchy because our countries look the same on a superficial level but are very different.

    Yes, Drug companies are allowed to charge more in the US but there are a number of factors that go into their pricing.

    1. Malpractice insurance - This can be as much as 60% of the cost of the drug to consumers. This is because Americans will sue at the drop of a hat even though most of the time they themselves are to blame for misusing their medication. VIOXX is an example of a great drug that has been pulled from the market soley because of litigation. The reported deaths from this drug were people who were already at risk of heart attacks or had already had heart problems and ignored the warning label. VIOXX was a great drug, I used it and it was the most effective pain relief for my back I've ever used.

    2. Insurance Companies that refuse to pay full price - Drug "A" costs $50 a dose. The insurance company balks and makes an offer of $27. $27 is your cost to make Drug "A", so if you want to make money (which is what a business is supposed to do) you instead charge $75 to $90 so that you can make the $50 you wanted in the first place. The problem is that the uninsured cannot negotiate like the insurance companies can, so they pay more.

    3. Marketing - This is one factor that I dissagree with and feel that the Drug companies should eat the cost. Pfizer makes a ton of important and needed medicines that humanity should be thankful for. Drugs that help children breath, see and walk and help people in so many ways that honestly we should get on our knees and thank God for Pfizer. That said, Pfizer spends hundreds of millions of dollars promoting Viagra and Xanax. They pay for this promotion by raising the price of their other meds and it is just a shitty thing to do. Come on, who doesn't know about Viagra by now? This is one area the government could step in and end.

    4. Lack of competition - There are only a handfull of drug companies. This is due mostly to malpractice lawsuits followed by over-regulation. Less competition automatically means higher prices. What did I start this thread off with? The Government is NOT YOUR FRIEND.

    5. Greed - I'm not stupid, greed is a factor and they Drug companies are bringing whatever's about to happen on themselves. I damn them for that. Cranking up prices in a fixed or rigged market is a great way to make enemies. It's like those corner markets that jacked up the price on water and batteries after the 1989 Earthquake in San Francisco, every one of them went out of business because their customers never forgave them.

    There are probably more reasons but the five I've listed can all be addressed by the US govenment (the next President?) and dealt with fairly so that Americans can get a fair break on the price of medication. Also, it will help in the long run as some states begin to try single-payer healthcare.
    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


    My Blog:

    http://axxman300tool.blogspot.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/axxman300

  11. #11
    Forum Frontman It's Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    03.26.06
    Age
    43
    Location
    Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    34,154
    Favorite VH Album

    like them all, no favourite
    Last Online

    12.16.17 @ 06:39 AM
    Likes
    1,320
    Liked 6,702 Times in 3,721 Posts

    Default

    all great points Axx - no need to apologize.

    At the end of the day, Canada shouldn't be looked at as a comparable to the States as far as the cost of prescription meds is concerned. The reason for this is because we are in a very favourable position because we can basically name our price. Your companies create these drugs, they have to clear all the necessary government channels and then they start to sell them at let's say 50 bucks a pill. Now in theory that pill doesn't cost anywhere near $50 a pill (closer to 50 cents) but the pharmaceuticals have to make back the money they've lost on all the drugs that never made it to market.

    Now when your pharaceuticals want to sell that drug in Canada our government says "sure, but only if you charge $15 a pill". For the pharmaceutical companies it's still added revenue so they go for it (they're still making a tonne of money) and for Canadians it's good value. The American government couldn't say the same thing as no company would ever try to create a new drug. I guess the question is why can't your government find a way to find a price somewhere between the $15 we're paying and the $50 you're paying.

  12. #12
    Sinner's Swing!
    Join Date
    10.19.03
    Location
    Lees Summit, MO
    Posts
    3,472
    Last Online

    10.27.17 @ 06:31 PM
    Likes
    2
    Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chefcraig View Post
    Charming. And completely missing the point.
    Maybe I didn't make my point clear, or perhaps I'm so disenchanted with people when they get their bill, the first thing they start asking me how much money I make, or I'm just sick of this arguement. What does how much anyone makes have to do with anything? Just because of my profession, many people seem to think I should work for free.

    Congratulations on your devotion to capitalism. Now work on your compassionate humanity.
    Why don't you come to work with me sometime and find out? Care to guess how many times I've opened my wallet for people who can't pay? I know that won't fix a damn thing in the grand scheme, but I consider myself very compassionate. How many hours I've spent getting elderly people around here Medicare Part D?

    I'm not compassionate with people in their mid twenties, perfectly capable of working, showing me their Medicaid card, when I see them pull up in Navigators and Hummers on 24s. Then they complain when they pay. "You people make too much money!" Whatever. There is so much abuse now it's unreal. My mom can't get healthcare coverage because she's honest, but I get people without drivers licenses, can't speak english, etc., but they gave state healthcare. Then they charge the state 1500 bucks for an ER visit with an earache??? A socialized system would have so much abuse its unreal.

  13. #13
    Sinner's Swing!
    Join Date
    10.19.03
    Location
    Lees Summit, MO
    Posts
    3,472
    Last Online

    10.27.17 @ 06:31 PM
    Likes
    2
    Liked 22 Times in 17 Posts

    Default

    One other thing. The help is out there right now, if your willing to do it. Right now, my mom is getting all of her meds for free from Astra Zeneca, about 300 dollars worth a month, from one of those evil drug companies.

    What is the largest reason drugs are so expensive in the U.S.? Patient lawsuits. The first thing you see (sometimes before) a problem is discovered with a medication (Vioxx, Phen Fen, etc.) is lawyers on tv wanting you to sue the drug company. A very large chunk of these large profits go toward paying these folks off. The amount of money an average family doctor pays in malpractice insurance is unreal, not to mention a specialist or a surgeon.

    There are many problems with the healthcare system that need to be addressed, and I get very frustrated with people's opinions on it, when they don't look at it as a whole. I also get very frustrated with some of these presidential candidates that over-simplify the situation to garner votes. Making promises with no real explanation of how it will actually work.
    Last edited by Rebel; 02.12.08 at 10:50 AM.

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk chefcraig's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.01.02
    Location
    A Confederacy of Dunces
    Posts
    19,370
    Last Online

    03.07.10 @ 06:18 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 10 Times in 9 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel View Post
    Maybe I didn't make my point clear, or perhaps I'm so disenchanted with people when they get their bill, the first thing they start asking me how much money I make, or I'm just sick of this arguement. What does how much anyone makes have to do with anything? Just because of my profession, many people seem to think I should work for free.



    Why don't you come to work with me sometime and find out? Care to guess how many times I've opened my wallet for people who can't pay? I know that won't fix a damn thing in the grand scheme, but I consider myself very compassionate. How many hours I've spent getting elderly people around here Medicare Part D?

    I'm not compassionate with people in their mid twenties, perfectly capable of working, showing me their Medicaid card, when I see them pull up in Navigators and Hummers on 24s. Then they complain when they pay. "You people make too much money!" Whatever. There is so much abuse now it's unreal. My mom can't get healthcare coverage because she's honest, but I get people without drivers licenses, can't speak english, etc., but they gave state healthcare. Then they charge the state 1500 bucks for an ER visit with an earache??? A socialized system would have so much abuse its unreal.
    Wonderful. From your original post, you completely failed to convey anything that you wrote above. Spare me your talk about your compassion: Since his retirement, up until he finally gave up the ghost-via a long, slow, demoralizing decent into a humiliating, anguished and yes, painful death two years ago-my father's experiences getting medicine, let alone proper health care was a frustrating and ponderous nightmare. My folks carefully planned their retirement, and still I had to help them financially to pay for drugs and medications that were ridiculously over priced.

    My father died in a fucking hospice, because even with my meager income helping out (and I had a family of my own as well) we could not afford a room in a hospital with proper care.

    As I said before, your petty resentment of freeloaders sucking off the government tit is not the issue here. People can only exploit a system if it is already corrupted. What sucks ass the hardest is that when people genuinely need the help the service allegedly is designed to provide, they can not get it.
    Last edited by chefcraig; 02.12.08 at 10:56 AM.
    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
    George Bernard Shaw

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk jrk5150's Avatar
    Join Date
    12.12.01
    Age
    48
    Location
    Massachusetts by way of the Great State of New Jersey
    Posts
    7,745
    Favorite VH Album

    5150
    Favorite VH Song

    Changes with the day
    Last Online

    12.15.17 @ 07:38 PM
    Likes
    30
    Liked 546 Times in 327 Posts


    Premium Member

    Donor

    Default

    First, I don't have answers, nor do any of us on this board, or we wouldn't BE on this board, you know? It's a complicated issue dying for real practical answers.

    The Canadian system WON'T work here. One aspect of the Canadian system not yet mentioned that keeps them happy is that they can always run across the border to the US to get procedures and care that they can't access in Canada. At least, that was the unanimous consensus of the 40-50 Canadian citizens I hired on TN visas a few years ago. Canada is just fine for most routine stuff. When your health gets complicated, there are problems. Long waits for surgery, lack of specialists, etc. That's what socialized health care gets you. Most of us would never notice the difference. The problem is that if you are in the position to notice the difference, you're fucked.

    And the problem isn't health care, it's health insurance along with health care.

    An insurance broker I know once ran the numbers - I forget the specifics, so I'll paraphrase to make the point - health insurance premium trends went through the roof exactly when the government allowed direct to consumer marketing. The numbers were astronomical. Drug companies advertise to you and me - the LEAST knowledgable parties in health care - and encourage us to go to our doctor and demand that brand name drug vs. the cheaper one they would have otherwise prescribed. Because Dr's are wary of getting sued if something goes wrong, they go along, and boom, there goes insurance costs, which then drives everything else up.

    The system needs tweaking, not blowing up, but the tweaking needs to be done with a very large hammer. You need tort reform, you need reasonable regulations on the drug companies, and you need some form of universal care. One won't work without the other.

    My own personal opinion is that drug companies shouldn't be public companies. You CAN'T have drug companies answering solely to profit considerations. But you also can't have them not making money, since no money = no R&D. Somewhere in there is a balance, I'm just not sure where it is. I know we have a company with a big facility up here, MITRE, which is essentially a non-profit defense technology think tank. It's had it's ups and downs, but overall, a well run company. There might be an answer there, maybe you convert to a non-profit R&D system - scientists need to be funded, most of them couldn't give a rat's ass about getting rich. If you had the drug companies just trying to break even vs. making a profit for their investors, maybe you have that balance. I can tell you from working in non-profit, there is no shortage of passionate smart people busting their asses to make things better. In general, I wouldn't hesitate to put my future in their hands, vs. what I've seen from for profit.

    Likening Police and Fire to health care isn't all that off base, but the problem is that Police and Fire Depts can still work effectively with old equipment and minimal to no R&D. Healthcare can't.
    Last edited by jrk5150; 02.12.08 at 01:54 PM.

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 134
    Last Post: 01.02.11, 06:48 AM
  2. On a happier note...
    By BottomsUp72 in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03.03.07, 12:11 PM
  3. Playing Songs Note For Note
    By TyndellE in forum "Song For Song" Tour 2002
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06.16.02, 09:25 PM
  4. Isn't a concert more enjoyable when the guitarist nails it note-for-note?
    By dirtymovies in forum "Song For Song" Tour 2002
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06.04.02, 05:02 PM
  5. Looking for an argument
    By Limecuda in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 95
    Last Post: 07.01.01, 10:33 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •