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  1. #1
    Hang 'Em High RRMB's Avatar
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    05.21.17 @ 06:42 PM
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    Default Banned From Church

    From The Wall Street Journal & Another reason I've been wary of religion as of late



    On a quiet Sunday morning in June, as worshippers settled into the pews at Allen Baptist Church in southwestern Michigan, Pastor Jason Burrick grabbed his cellphone and dialed 911. When a dispatcher answered, the preacher said a former congregant was in the sanctuary. "And we need to, um, have her out A.S.A.P."


    Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs. (Listen to the 911 call)

    (You can hear the call on the WSJ website)

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1200...s_inside_today


    The charge was trespassing, but Mrs. Caskey's real offense, in her pastor's view, was spiritual. Several months earlier, when she had questioned his authority, he'd charged her with spreading "a spirit of cancer and discord" and expelled her from the congregation. "I've been shunned," she says.

    Her story reflects a growing movement among some conservative Protestant pastors to bring back church discipline, an ancient practice in which suspected sinners are privately confronted and then publicly castigated and excommunicated if they refuse to repent. While many Christians find such practices outdated, pastors in large and small churches across the country are expelling members for offenses ranging from adultery and theft to gossiping, skipping service and criticizing church leaders.


    CAST OFF

    • Timeline: View a brief history of shunning and excommunication.The revival is part of a broader movement to restore churches to their traditional role as moral enforcers, Christian leaders say. Some say that contemporary churches have grown soft on sinners, citing the rise of suburban megachurches where pastors preach self-affirming messages rather than focusing on sin and redemption. Others point to a passage in the gospel of Matthew that says unrepentant sinners must be shunned.

    Causing Disharmony

    Watermark Community Church, a nondenominational church in Dallas that draws 4,000 people to services, requires members to sign a form stating they will submit to the "care and correction" of church elders. Last week, the pastor of a 6,000-member megachurch in Nashville, Tenn., threatened to expel 74 members for gossiping and causing disharmony unless they repented. The congregants had sued the pastor for access to the church's financial records.

    First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.

    The process can be messy, says Al Jackson, pastor of Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn, Ala., which began disciplining members in the 1990s. Once, when the congregation voted out an adulterer who refused to repent, an older woman was confused and thought the church had voted to send the man to hell.


    Karolyn Caskey was expelled from Allen Baptist Church after clashing with the pastor.
    Amy Hitt, 43, a mortgage officer in Amissville, Va., was voted out of her Baptist congregation in 2004 for gossiping about her pastor's plans to buy a bigger house. Her ouster was especially hard on her twin sons, now 12 years old, who had made friends in the church, she says. "Some people have looked past it, but then there are others who haven't," says Ms. Hitt, who believes the episode cost her a seat on the school board last year; she lost by 42 votes.

    Scholars estimate that 10% to 15% of Protestant evangelical churches practice church discipline -- about 14,000 to 21,000 U.S. congregations in total. Increasingly, clashes within churches are spilling into communities, splitting congregations and occasionally landing church leaders in court after congregants, who believed they were confessing in private, were publicly shamed.

    In the past decade, more than two dozen lawsuits related to church discipline have been filed as congregants sue pastors for defamation, negligent counseling and emotional injury, according to the Religion Case Reporter, a legal-research database. Peggy Penley, a Fort Worth, Texas, woman whose pastor revealed her extramarital affair to the congregation after she confessed it in confidence, waged a six-year battle against the pastor, charging him with negligence. Last summer, the Texas Supreme Court dismissed her suit, ruling that the pastor was exercising his religious beliefs by publicizing the affair.

    Courts have often refused to hear such cases on the grounds that churches are protected by the constitutional right to free religious exercise, but some have sided with alleged sinners. In 2003, a woman and her husband won a defamation suit against the Iowa Methodist conference and its superintendent after he publicly accused her of "spreading the spirit of Satan" because she gossiped about her pastor. A district court rejected the case, but the Iowa Supreme Court upheld the woman's appeal on the grounds that the letter labeling her a sinner was circulated beyond the church.

    Advocates of shunning say it rarely leads to the public disclosure of a member's sin. "We're not the FBI; we're not sniffing around people's homes trying to find out some secret sin," says Don Singleton, pastor of Ridgeview Baptist Church in Talladega, Ala., who says the 50-member church has disciplined six members in his 2½ years as pastor. "Ninety-nine percent of these cases never go that far."

    When they do, it can be humiliating. A devout Christian and grandmother of three, Mrs. Caskey moves with a halting gait, due to two artificial knees and a double hip replacement. Friends and family describe her as a generous woman who helped pay the electricity bill for Allen Baptist, in Allen, Mich., when funds were low, gave the church $1,200 after she sold her van, and even cut the church's lawn on occasion. She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.

    Her expulsion came as a shock to some church members when, in August 2006, the pastor sent a letter to the congregation stating Mrs. Caskey and an older married couple, Patsy and Emmit Church, had been removed for taking "action against the church and your preacher." The pastor, Mr. Burrick, told congregants the three were guilty of gossip, slander and idolatry and should be shunned, according to several former church members.

    "People couldn't believe it," says Janet Biggs, 53, a former church member who quit the congregation in protest.

    The conflict had been brewing for months. Shortly after the church hired Mr. Burrick in 2005 to help revive the congregation, which had dwindled to 12 members, Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition outlined in the church's charter. Mr. Burrick said the congregation was too small to warrant deacons. Mrs. Caskey pressed the issue at the church's quarterly business meetings and began complaining that Mr. Burrick was not following the church's bylaws. "She's one of the nicest, kindest people I know," says friend and neighbor Robert Johnston, 69, a retired cabinet maker. "But she won't be pushed around."

    In April 2006, Mrs. Caskey received a stern letter from Mr. Burrick. "This church will not tolerate this spirit of cancer and discord that you would like to spread," it said. Mrs. Caskey, along with Mr. and Mrs. Church, continued to insist that the pastor follow the church's constitution. In August, she received a letter from Mr. Burrick that said her failure to repent had led to her removal. It also said he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations, until she had "made things right here at Allen Baptist."

    cont.
    Last edited by RRMB; 01.21.08 at 01:21 PM.
    "Jesus, that fucker just crawled out of his hen house that was destroyed by the Alabama tornados. Fucking 280mph plus winds sucked the gleam off this bitch and passed it on to a bird in Rhoad Island." - Hurricane Halen 5/3/11 (about my birthday chicken from seenbad)

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    Hang 'Em High RRMB's Avatar
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    Default PART 2

    PART 2


    She went to Florida for the winter, and when she returned to Michigan last June, she drove the two miles to Allen Baptist as usual. A church member asked her to leave, saying she was not welcome, but Mrs. Caskey told him she had come to worship and asked if they could speak after the service. Twenty minutes into the service, a sheriff's officer was at her side, and an hour later, she was in jail.

    "It was very humiliating," says Mrs. Caskey, who worked for the state of Michigan for 25 years before retiring from the Department of Corrections in 1992. "The other prisoners were surprised to see a little old lady in her church clothes. One of them said, 'You robbed a church?' and I said, 'No, I just attended church.' "

    Word quickly spread throughout Allen, a close-knit town of about 200 residents. Once a thriving community of farmers and factory workers, Allen consists of little more than a strip of dusty antiques stores. Mr. and Mrs. Church, both in their 70s, eventually joined another Baptist congregation nearby.

    About 25 people stopped attending Allen Baptist Church after Mrs. Caskey was shunned, according to several former church members.

    Current members say they support the pastor's actions, and they note that the congregation has grown under his leadership. The simple, white-washed building now draws around 70 people on Sunday mornings, many of them young families. "He's a very good leader; he has total respect for the people," says Stephen Johnson, 66, an auto parts inspector, who added that Mr. Burrick was right to remove Mrs. Caskey because "the Bible says causing discord in the church is an abomination."

    Mrs. Caskey went back to the church about a month after her arrest, shortly after the county prosecutor threw out the trespassing charge. More than a dozen supporters gathered outside, some with signs that read "What Would Jesus Do?" She sat in the front row as Mr. Burrick preached about "infidels in the pews," according to reports from those present.

    Once again, Mrs. Caskey was escorted out by a state trooper and taken to jail, where she posted the $62 bail and was released. After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.

    In the following weeks, Mrs. Caskey continued to worship at Allen Baptist. Some congregants no longer spoke to her or passed the offering plate, and some changed seats if she sat next to them, she says.

    Mr. Burrick repeatedly declined to comment on Mrs. Caskey's case, calling it a "private ecclesiastical matter." He did say that while the church does not "blacklist" anyone, a strict reading of the Bible requires pastors to punish disobedient members. "A lot of times, flocks aren't willing to submit or be obedient to God," he said in an interview before a Sunday evening service. "If somebody is not willing to be helped, they forfeit their membership."

    In Christianity's early centuries, church discipline led sinners to cover themselves with ashes or spend time in the stocks. In later centuries, expulsion was more common. Until the late 19th century, shunning was widely practiced by American evangelicals, including Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists. Today, excommunication rarely occurs in the U.S. Catholic Church, and shunning is largely unheard of among mainline Protestants.

    Among churches that practice discipline, there is little consensus on how sinners should be dealt with, says Gregory Wills, a theologian at Southern Baptist Theological seminary. Some pastors remove members on their own, while other churches require agreement among deacons or a majority vote from the congregation.

    Since Mrs. Caskey's second arrest last July, the turmoil at Allen Baptist has fizzled into an awkward stalemate. Allen Baptist is an independent congregation, unaffiliated with a church hierarchy that might review the ouster. Supporters have urged Mrs. Caskey to sue to have her membership restored, but she says the matter should be settled in the church. Mr. Burrick no longer calls the police when Mrs. Caskey shows up for Sunday services.

    Since November, Mrs. Caskey has been attending a Baptist church near her winter home in Tavares, Fla. She plans to go back to Allen Baptist when she returns to Michigan this spring.

    "I don't intend to abandon that church," Mrs. Caskey says. "I feel like I have every right to be there."

    Write to Alexandra Alter at alexandra.alter@wsj.com
    "Jesus, that fucker just crawled out of his hen house that was destroyed by the Alabama tornados. Fucking 280mph plus winds sucked the gleam off this bitch and passed it on to a bird in Rhoad Island." - Hurricane Halen 5/3/11 (about my birthday chicken from seenbad)

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  3. #3
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    We have a word for people like that here:

    Hoosiers.


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  4. #4
    Good Enough EJC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrockinmonkeyboy View Post
    From The Wall Street Journal & Another reason I've been wary of religion as of late
    Don't let some pastor with an axe to grind in Michigan harden your heart. That's just satan using the world to lead people away from the word of Jesus Christ.

    If you have time, read the new testament and don't worry about other's interpretations...

    ~Peace

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    Sinner's Swing! Wickett's Avatar
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    Great, another reason to dislike organized religion.

    Now I admittedly don't know my Bible very well, as it's been many years since Sunday School, however memory seems to recall that Jesus preached to the sinners, broke bread with them, etc. In other words, he sought the sinners out. He didn't castigate them, he continued his teachings.

    This sounds like a squabble you'd have at a jr high Chess club, not from a man who is supposed to be teaching the works of Jesus.
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    Baluchitherium loveevhsince79's Avatar
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    At least they're not a cult trying to brainwash people into staying against their will.

    Every church interprets the Bible to their own needs. I'm just glad mine is all about Jesus dying for your sins to be forgiven, not casting you out because you do sin. I mean, everyone sins, right? Wow......

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJC View Post
    Don't let some pastor with an axe to grind in Michigan harden your heart. That's just satan using the world to lead people away from the word of Jesus Christ.

    If you have time, read the new testament and don't worry about other's interpretations...

    ~Peace
    Perhaps the most profound statement ever made on the links. Well stated, and thank you.

  8. #8
    Eruption lal5150's Avatar
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    if one thing is true . gossip will destroy and tear apart a church and its members.
    they hate if your the same , and they hate you if your different- evh

  9. #9
    Eruption
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    While this scenario is laughable (wasn't Protestantism started by causing discord in the Church?), people seem to mistake "sinners" with "repentant sinners." Everyone sins, but not all repent. Therefore, if someone kills another person but is truly sorry, that person will be forgiven. If another person steals a penny from someone and is not sorry, that person will not be forgiven (this is all technical using the furthest extremes).

    Jesus' sinners repented. If someone came up to Jesus and said, "Yeah, I screwed around on my wife, but she deserved it. So save me!" I'm pretty sure Jesus would advise him where he is going to go without repenting. I guess he would still preach to him and let him follow, but if after a while the guy still hadn't repented and started to become a distraction, I assume that he would tell him (in a Jesusly sort of way) to take a hike.

    People who sin and don't show remorse for it are, according to scripture, not going anywhere nice. This woman is most likely right, but in instances where someone is wrong, kicking that person out of the church is the responsible thing to do. To an extent, it's all subjective.
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    I agree, if you want to know about Christ, read the bible for yourself. It's a great book.
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    Very interesting thread. I actually know Al Jackson, the pastor from Lakeview Baptist in Auburn, AL..

    Pastors are sinners just like the average lay person. Unfortunately God's words and will are distorted and manipulated. That being said, if a member is constantly causing problems and discord, the leadership should have every right to ask them to leave. A 911 call is a bit extreme though, IMO.

  12. #12
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    My question is:

    If you are going to gossip, why even go to church?

    That is bearing false witness, plus it' being an asshole. The Paster should also be fired because he's obviously not explaining th basic Ten Commandments and if he's not doing that right then he's probably screwing up the New Testiment too.

    That's why I stopped attending Church: Hypocrisy.

    My poor mother has always been active in the church and forget Washingto DC or the Maffia, if you want to see serious back-stabbing then hang out with the Church-Ladies. Gossip, gossip and more gossip will spew from their pie-holes. They use it like a biological weapon, they are the embodiment of evil because they pick and pick away until the church falls apart.

    If I were a Priest, Pastor or Pope I'd have them burned at the stake.

    Honestly, you just can't go to church on Sunday and then spend the other six days of the week doing anti-Christian stuff. It's not like God is only watching for that one hour on Sunday.

    Here's why I left:

    I grew up in Carmel and I was dragged to All Saints Episcopal Church by my mother. I didn't like church much but in hindsight I was lucky to go when I did. The 1970s brought in progressive young Priests with radical ideas. We used to have folk masses on Wednesday nights where we sat on pillows in a circle near the alter and song folk Christian songs backed by a 12-string guitar. These young Priests taught us the good book and then challenged us to challenge our faith. They'd ask us "Is the Bible right on this issue? Was Jesus right on this issue?". It forced us to think about what the Bible said and not just to absorb it whole. It was the best thing that ever happened to me because there are a lot of people (my grandmother) who can quote the Bible cold word by word but many of these same people can't explain or extrapolate those words into deeper meaning. These Priests usually had classes after the service where they discussed current affairs and social issues and then put the Christian spin into the mix to see what happened. For Passover we invited the local Rabbi to lead the service. That was great because he told us the story of Passover and then he did the service in Aramaic which was how Jesus would have also done it. It brought us closer in a way to the whole thing.

    It was actually pretty cool.

    The head Priest was an older guy who was just a good man. Highly educated and he was a big fan of the old Univeral Monster movies. This is a guy who was there for you when you needed him. He was at the hospital when you were sick, he baptized your kids, held your hand while your loved ones were on their last days and did the funeral. His door was always open. He built that church too (you can see it in the movie "A Summer Place").

    So when it came time to replace the 30 year old doors, Father decided to go with something innovative, Tinted Glass doors. The idea was that when you drove by at night the church would always look open and you could see the alter glowing inside. It is still cool to see. Well guess what, kiddies? Those parishoners who he'd prayed for, baptized, held hands and cried with fired him. After 36 years they tossed him out on his ear because he had the nerve to CHANGE something without their permission. It broke his heart and within six months he developed Alzheimers and less than three years later he was dead.

    That's why I left. Obviously the parish had not gotten the message on all of those Sunday mornings because they did not act in a Christian manner. What they did was inhuman and petty.
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    Atomic Punk LLFHS's Avatar
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    Ah once again......religion being the divisive tool it was designed to be.
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    "They say there's just enough religion in the world to make men hate one another, but not enough to make them love."


    --Louis Cypher in Angel Heart







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    Baluchitherium loveevhsince79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCJanko View Post
    While this scenario is laughable (wasn't Protestantism started by causing discord in the Church?), people seem to mistake "sinners" with "repentant sinners." Everyone sins, but not all repent. Therefore, if someone kills another person but is truly sorry, that person will be forgiven. If another person steals a penny from someone and is not sorry, that person will not be forgiven (this is all technical using the furthest extremes).

    Jesus' sinners repented. If someone came up to Jesus and said, "Yeah, I screwed around on my wife, but she deserved it. So save me!" I'm pretty sure Jesus would advise him where he is going to go without repenting. I guess he would still preach to him and let him follow, but if after a while the guy still hadn't repented and started to become a distraction, I assume that he would tell him (in a Jesusly sort of way) to take a hike.

    People who sin and don't show remorse for it are, according to scripture, not going anywhere nice. This woman is most likely right, but in instances where someone is wrong, kicking that person out of the church is the responsible thing to do. To an extent, it's all subjective.
    At what point do you stop trying? Yes, it is subjective but I would like to think that your pastor, priest, preacher, etc is going to be working overtime to get you to see the light and save your soul. That's their job. You don't throw in the towel and say, "Oh well, I tried." In this instance, it wasn't even a matter of her sinning, it was that she disagreed with the way they were running things. She wanted the church to follow the rules as laid out by the church.

    There could be more to the story that they are not relating but it doesn't seem like she was standing up during the Sunday services and shouting out that they have to have Deacons in the church. She was bringing it up during their meetings.

 

 

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