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  1. #1
    Eruption HippieLettuce's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 08:12 PM
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    Default Should "Under God" be omitted from the Pledge?

    A few religion threads going.

    Thought I'd throw this out there.

    Close it if it's already been done..

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 02:04 PM
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    Boy, we're just hitting all the hot button issues aren't we?

    I'll say no.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

  3. #3
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    No.
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  4. #4
    Eruption EVHWolf's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 06:23 PM
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    Yes,
    Let me start by saying that I went to a private Quaker school where we did not say the pledge every morning.

    "Under God" was not in the Pledge until sometime early 50s. Yes, the first people from Europe here were Prostestant trying the escape the Church of England, and this country was founded by such, but also founded because of religious freedom. To force one certain religious belief goes against what this country was and is about. Religion is unfortunately another major division within our country (not to mention what it has done to the world).
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  5. #5
    Atomic Punk smithjc's Avatar
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    08.04.17 @ 11:33 PM
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    Gotta say NO on this one.
    RIP - Classic Van Halen

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  6. #6
    Eruption HippieLettuce's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 08:12 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVHWolf View Post
    Yes, the first people from Europe here were Prostestant trying the escape the Church of England, and this country was founded by such, but also founded because of religious freedom. To force one certain religious belief goes against what this country was and is about.
    Exactly.

    But it is every students' right to refuse to say The Pledge.

  7. #7
    Sinner's Swing! twonabomber's Avatar
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    12.08.16 @ 03:21 AM
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    or to do as i used to do...don't say "under God."
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  8. #8
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 02:04 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVHWolf View Post
    Religion is unfortunately another major division within our country (not to mention what it has done to the world).
    I'm going to divert this thread a little bit, but I'll go ahead anyway. I've heard this or something similar stated by many people who argue against religion in general. Frankly, I don't understand it.

    Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and Islam are all peaceful religions by their nature. I know there are exceptions to that rule, but religion should not be pegged for human indiscretions. It is those indiscretions that religion attempts to avoid. We are all "sinners." We are flawed by nature and have always started conflicts, whether it be because of nationality, religion, tribe, food source, race, etc. The common theme is the human element, not religion. When wars are waged in the name of religion, it is being perverted.

    You can total up body counts and say religion has adversely effected humans, but you cannot count the number of people who have been "saved" by religion. You cannot count the number of families given food by religious organizations, or kids given treatment for illness, or homeless people given food, children adopted, families adopted, houses built---all in the name of religion. You can also not count the number of people who have been given true happiness and peace of mind from their religion.

    The answer to human unity is not to eliminate barriers (religion, race, country, tribe, gender, sexual orientation, etc.), it is to better understand those barriers.

    To put it simply: Religion is good, human nature is bad.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
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    07.24.11 @ 04:36 PM
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    this is another really silly debate. Secularists think that having god in our pledge somehow turns us into a theocracy and religious people think taking it out will somehow signal our further decent into humanism.

    The secularists, which I consider myself to be, don't want to accept a couple of simple facts. First more people like the idea of being under a god than not. It gives them hope and comfort. Whatever. Somewhere down the line secularism and atheism began being more about convincing others that they're stupid and believe in fairy tales than being about an INDIVIDUAL'S world view. Secondly, as much as I wish the First amendment meant that government would provide a completely secular public society while allowing the free exercise of religion in houses of worship and private residences, that's not what it meant at all. Our founding fathers were deists. A lot of people try to convince themselves that they were passionate conservative christians but they weren't. They were deists who believed in a graceful god and had their own individual abstract beliefs about how the existence of a god could be reconciled with their practical world views. Remember these guys were products of the Enlightenment. So they were real clear that god fit into the scheme of things and had a place in a healthy society and they were very purposeful in their approach to keeping not as much a wall but a pretty gated fence between religion and society and the politics of governing said society. They knew they didn't want a theocracy but they also knew that having god on your side couldn't hurt. You also have to remember they believed in providence and that a higher power was guiding them and the new nation they were shaping. So as much as secularists want to believe Jefferson and Madison (the two who wrote the most on religion and the meaning of the first amendment) were outright atheists, they are just as wrong as those religious people who want to believe their were devout Christians.

    So even though God wasn't put into the pledge until the cold war, it does fit easily into what the fathers had in mind. Remember, the Constitution and the Declaration both invoke higher powers.

    As for the religious people, mostly Christians, they fail to realize that God and Jesus should be in their SOULS and HEARTS first and foremost. This obsession with needing to see jesus in every mall, nativity scenes outside every library, ten commandments in every court room and other such invocations crammed into every single public corner they can find and the outrage the spew when their efforts are denied is just as contrary to the founders vision.

    Now, call me crazy but this is probably most important point. If you are strong of faith. If Jesus, or whatever, is truly in your heart and first in your life and you enjoy that peace and security, you shouldn't need to see God plastered all over the place. In fact, I think there's something wrong if you do. There should be more intimacy and reverence in one's relationship with the almighty. God shouldn't be the obligatory remark when you win an oscar, score a touchdown or ace a test. You shouldn't need the state or federal government to tell you God is great because you should already feel it in every step you take in life.

    As for the secularists, if you're so goddamn sure of yourself and so at peace in your "faith" that there is no god and that everyone else is stupid, SEEING god plastered everywhere shouldn't bug you either. At MOST it should be a mild trivial reason to giggle at all the people who are going around praising something that doesn't exist. Get over yourself. It's not your place to redesign everyone's world view and if indeed living in a society that acknowledges the presence of god is so frustrating, well, there are a slew of countries you can move to.

    It's all about balance. This little experiment with freedom is not without its problems and one of them is making sure that all these fucking children running thinking they've somehow graduated beyond kindergarten can fucking play nice together. Easier said than done when you have such equally passionate and annoying religions at war with each other.

  10. #10
    Baluchitherium Guitar Shark's Avatar
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    03.01.10 @ 10:22 AM
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    Do I think it should be part of the pledge? No. Do I think it should be removed? No. It's really not that big of a deal.

  11. #11
    Little Dreamer
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    05.07.12 @ 10:15 AM
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    As an atheist, I wouldn't mind to see "Under God" be removed from the pledge, but I totally understand Broken's post. I am secure enough in my lack of belief that a reference to god in the pledge doesn't bother me. It's just one more reason for me to chuckle at religion.

  12. #12
    Eruption EVHWolf's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 06:23 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsbll4 View Post
    I'm going to divert this thread a little bit, but I'll go ahead anyway. I've heard this or something similar stated by many people who argue against religion in general. Frankly, I don't understand it.

    Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and Islam are all peaceful religions by their nature. I know there are exceptions to that rule, but religion should not be pegged for human indiscretions. It is those indiscretions that religion attempts to avoid. We are all "sinners." We are flawed by nature and have always started conflicts, whether it be because of nationality, religion, tribe, food source, race, etc. The common theme is the human element, not religion. When wars are waged in the name of religion, it is being perverted.

    You can total up body counts and say religion has adversely effected humans, but you cannot count the number of people who have been "saved" by religion. You cannot count the number of families given food by religious organizations, or kids given treatment for illness, or homeless people given food, children adopted, families adopted, houses built---all in the name of religion. You can also not count the number of people who have been given true happiness and peace of mind from their religion.

    The answer to human unity is not to eliminate barriers (religion, race, country, tribe, gender, sexual orientation, etc.), it is to better understand those barriers.

    To put it simply: Religion is good, human nature is bad.

    I think I could have worded my above comment better. Both of these last posts have been great reads. What I meant to say is that I remember a time where the first thing mentioned wasn't someones political beliefs or religious beliefs. Maybe it was just a time when I was younger and didn't notice. But the first thing out of too many peoples mouths is "he's Christian" or "he's a nonbeliever" or "they're Dems..." I just don't remember Americans being split into such groups and the outspoken members of those groups spewing so much hate. I can't listen to the extremes on either side. I just know that what I believe and feel in my heart is right for me. Who cares if the neighbor or my brother-in-law is 180 degrees from what I think.
    Yes, some of that which is carried out in the name of religion is bad. I am fully aware of all the good that faith and religious groups have done. I just think that when its being done, one does not need to be point out that it is because of religion. It shouldn't matter that you are a Christian to work at a soup kitchen on Friday nights...you should do it to help those who need the help.

    I actually enjoy discussions about religion. I have my beliefs and I am comfortable with them. I can sit through any religious service and enjoy the experience. I like to see people get so much joy from something...even if I don't. Nobody has it right. Nobody knows...as long as you're at peace with yourself and your place then who cares what you believe.
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  13. #13
    Atomic Punk jrk5150's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 11:13 AM
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    First, I don't care personally one way or the other, I should make that clear.

    Second, given that the phrase was artificially added and the pledge originally didn't have the phrase, I don't think there is any kind of historical or traditional issue here. In fact, if you want to honor tradition, take it out, but that's not my argument.

    The problem I have with the argument that you don't have to say the pledge or you can leave out the phrase is that you are then requiring a child to take a stand that they shouldn't have to take. You are potentially and intentionally putting someone with an unformed sense of self into a position where they could be subject to ridicule or ostracism. Yes, any kid who is put in that position is likely put there by his/her parents, but that's not even the issue. I can't control the idiocy of the parents. I CAN "control" whether or not that particular phrase, which wasn't in the original and therefore arguably doesn't even belong there, is in the pledge. And IMO, making a child decide whether or not to say a phrase that wasn't intended to be there in the first place just isn't right.

    Now, does this mean we remove all potential points of contention where a child could be made fun of from a school? Nope - this is one issue, and should be decided based on the facts of this one issue. I'll make up my mind on the next issue when it comes up. There IS no "precedent" when it comes to this shit, it it what it is, and needs to be evaluated on its own merits. In this particular case, I think the fact the phrase doesn't belong there based on the orginal writing combined with the age of those at issue here are the controlling factors.

  14. #14
    Hot For Teacher 8amtill606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVHWolf View Post
    What I meant to say is that I remember a time where the first thing mentioned wasn't someones political beliefs or religious beliefs. Maybe it was just a time when I was younger and didn't notice. But the first thing out of too many peoples mouths is "he's Christian" or "he's a nonbeliever" or "they're Dems..." I just don't remember Americans being split into such groups and the outspoken members of those groups spewing so much hate.
    I remember that time too. But ask yourself when all of that began to change AND who, then and now, are responsible for most of the divisiveness that has come about. To me those who proclaim to be enlightened and who have annointed themselves the leaders of tolerance aren't very tolerant at all.

    Isn't it curious to anyone that the more we keep erasing God, in any form, from our society (a society that was founded on the belief in God by the way) - the closer and closer we seem to be slipping into Hell?

  15. #15
    Hot For Teacher 8amtill606's Avatar
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    Here's a couple of tests to see how strong this is.

    Let one of the candidates running right now espouse that as one of their goals. See how long they last in the race.

    Better yet - put it to a vote for the people - let the country decide if we should remove GOD from the Pledge. Do you really think that would pass?

    I doubt very seriously that the people who want it removed are very regularly reciting the Pledge of Allegiance anyway.

 

 

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