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  1. #1
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    Default US Army, The New Divide In Leadership (Good Reading)

    The Sunday NY Times has an excellent article about the growing divide between combat hardened junior officers and Senior Officers who've never been in combat.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/ma...ewanted=1&_r=1

    It sites an article called "A Failure of Generalship" that ran in the May issue of "Armed Forces Journal":

    http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/05/2635198

    This is also a great article.
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    Atomic Punk WinterlessIceness's Avatar
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    In a nutshell, that's the point of a local war. To raise much more qualified high-rank military personnel , once these junior officers start to replace their commanders.

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    Mm, surprise-surprise. So is it just me alone who sees a glimpse of something positive around the whole Iraq/Afganistan situation?

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    I haven't read the article fully, but a lot of this is addressed in "Fiasco." I.E. - The discussion of commanders that were either fully ignorant of the precepts of counterinsurgency warfare, or with no grand strategic vision - far too focused on winning the battle at the cost of losing the war.

    Generals Ricardo Sanchez, Tommy Franks, and Raymond Odierno (who's still there) top the hall of shame list of guys that didn't/don't get it...

    And yes, with few exceptions, the majority if the brass let Rumsfeld steamroll them and inflict on the nation one of the worst, most idiotic war plans in US history...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08.27.07 at 07:55 AM.
    Originally posted by Katydid

    Because I realize you all (the Roth Army) are a bunch of twisted, demented, beastility, porn loving, drug addicts and alcoholics and psycopaths. I guess Devil worshippers more aptly describe you.

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    What if I told you that at one time, the US Army had a division that was trained to the teeth to fight and thrive in a conter-insurgency type conflict?

    What if I told you that the Commanding Generals of this Division would have publically resigned after telling the SecDef what he could do with his "War Plan"?

    What if I told you that at least one of this Division's Brigade Commanders would have commandeered a plane and then flew to Washington and kicked Rumsfeld in the nut so hard that he would have had to takeout his denture to piss for a couple of years?

    What if I told you that there was once a Divsion with men and leadership like that?

    What if I told you that the Army did everything in it's power to undermine this Division and it succeeded anyway?

    What if I told you that the Army simply used BRAC as an excuse to de-activate this Division and scatter it's men to the winds and do away with the training and doctrine that had made this Division the premire Light Division of the US Army?

    What if I told you that the Army's suppression of this unit and it's history has been so successful that most current active duty commanders scoff when told of the unit's capabilities and daily activities?

    What if I told you that this suppression accounts for at least a third of the combat casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, due to the lack of quality training and tactics?

    What if I told you this training was often cheaper and more productive than the training Infantry units received after 1994?

    What if I told you about all that stuff?
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  6. #6
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    11.27.17 @ 11:27 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
    What if I told you that at one time, the US Army had a division that was trained to the teeth to fight and thrive in a conter-insurgency type conflict?

    What if I told you that the Commanding Generals of this Division would have publically resigned after telling the SecDef what he could do with his "War Plan"?

    What if I told you that at least one of this Division's Brigade Commanders would have commandeered a plane and then flew to Washington and kicked Rumsfeld in the nut so hard that he would have had to takeout his denture to piss for a couple of years?

    What if I told you that there was once a Divsion with men and leadership like that?

    What if I told you that the Army did everything in it's power to undermine this Division and it succeeded anyway?

    What if I told you that the Army simply used BRAC as an excuse to de-activate this Division and scatter it's men to the winds and do away with the training and doctrine that had made this Division the premire Light Division of the US Army?

    What if I told you that the Army's suppression of this unit and it's history has been so successful that most current active duty commanders scoff when told of the unit's capabilities and daily activities?

    What if I told you that this suppression accounts for at least a third of the combat casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, due to the lack of quality training and tactics?

    What if I told you this training was often cheaper and more productive than the training Infantry units received after 1994?

    What if I told you about all that stuff?
    I've never heard of this; the Army largely ceased any large scale counterinsurgency training about 1990 (after the Gulf War). Apparently driving large numbers of tanks in envelopment operations is much more fun. Indeed, there was little in regards to literature on CI in the Army's inventory of field manuals. Most had to reach back to the Vietnam era, and especially the French officers that wrote extensively about their failures and successes in Algeria, to find worthwhile advice on how to deal with Muslim inurgents.

    There was never a "counterinsurgency" division and little, if any, thought of it outside the world of Special Forces...
    Originally posted by Katydid

    Because I realize you all (the Roth Army) are a bunch of twisted, demented, beastility, porn loving, drug addicts and alcoholics and psycopaths. I guess Devil worshippers more aptly describe you.

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk Little Dreamer's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 10:26 PM
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    Well you don't even need to be Sherlock Holmes to know that some very competent voices were silenced right before the 2003 invasion. General Eric Shinseki had predicted the Iraq clusterfuck, but was "retired" by the "courageous" ideologues of the Bush administration, guys who had never even approached a battlefield their whole life. War pigs indeed...
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I've never heard of this; the Army largely ceased any large scale counterinsurgency training about 1990 (after the Gulf War). Apparently driving large numbers of tanks in envelopment operations is much more fun. Indeed, there was little in regards to literature on CI in the Army's inventory of field manuals. Most had to reach back to the Vietnam era, and especially the French officers that wrote extensively about their failures and successes in Algeria, to find worthwhile advice on how to deal with Muslim inurgents.

    There was never a "counterinsurgency" division and little, if any, thought of it outside the world of Special Forces...
    Allow me to introduce you to the 7th Infantry Division (Light):




    The 7thID(L) was the Army's premier light infantry divsion, it was rapidly deployable and was design to operating in "Low Intesity Conflicts" such as Iraq (yes, Iraq is technically a low intensity conflict) where insurgency was expected and anticpated. The 7thID(L)'s main areas of operations were Korea and Central America although they trained to fight in all climates which took them as far away as Iceland and Canada as well as the Sinai desert as UN Peace Keepers. While the 7thID(L)'s masterpiece was "Operation Just Cause" in Panama; where it seized and secured the Canal in eight hours and would spend the next two months assisting 7th Special Forces Group ODA teams in searching and securing the country, the Division also participated in a number of clandestine operations in Honduras, Colombia and the Philippines.

    Counter Insurgency was a big piece of the 7thID(L) training doctrine, as a result they became adept at booby traps (what we call IEDs today) both in detection and deployment. Lightfighters often boobytrapped their booby traps just for fun. The 7thID(L) TO&E included hearts & minds operations and in Panama they treated more people for medical conditions than they killed.

    While an Army squad is supposed to be 8 men, the 7thID(L) was often short on personel so their average squad was 6 men. So they compansated by adding more SAWs to each platoon, the only other unit that did this was the 75 Ranger Regiment. These smaller squads made up for their lack of man power by being the sneakiest bastards ever.



    The 7thID(L) built what is still one of the best MOUT training sites in the world, as witnessed by it's continued use by Army SF and SOF, Navy SEAL teams, CIA, FBI and California SWAT Teams. Unlike MOUT sites at Bragg and Knox, Fort Ord's version was designed to be a confusing maze of buildings crammed close together. It's nickname was "Impossible City":



    This MOUT site made the difference in Panama, where out of 10,000 men deployed they only had 250 wounded and 4 killed in action (2 in a helicopter crash).

    In short, the Army DID have a division that was trained to fight the very kind of war we have now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The reason you've never heard about it is because I haven't finished my book about them. I'm a moderator at the 7thinfantry.com website and I've been adopted the 7th Infantry Association and the 17th Infantry Regimental Association for the work I've been doing to track down records and tell their story.
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  9. #9
    Hang 'Em High Reckless Fable's Avatar
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    11.28.17 @ 10:56 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    Well you don't even need to be Sherlock Holmes to know that some very competent voices were silenced right before the 2003 invasion. General Eric Shinseki had predicted the Iraq clusterfuck, but was "retired" by the "courageous" ideologues of the Bush administration, guys who had never even approached a battlefield their whole life. War pigs indeed...
    Giving General Shinseki any credibility in this argument is a total canard. Maybe you should have read what Gen Shinseki said and you'd see the absurdity in trusting him to be the sage of any wides-cale counterinsurgency operations. For as much as the initial efforts to handle post-invasion in Iraq were misplayed, Eric Shinseki would have amplified them. He was a Cold Warrior to the bone and had a long history of advocating heavy armor and large troop deployment supported by massive and frequent air-strikes.

    The truth of the matter is, as a few of the commenters have mentioned here, there were very few minds in CENTCOM that fully grasped the nuances of counterinsurgency in high places (guys like General Petraues and General McQuarters of the 3rd Cav). They were few and far between in terms of strategic decision making, but the right guy is there now and hopefully the political climate in Washington can hold out just long enough to give him enough time to work this properly. Things are still messy, but there is a ray of light.

    Anyway, there are a lot of legitimate criticisms to be made about post-invasion handling, but Eric Shinseki is an extremely dubious character to put your faith in.
    Last edited by Reckless Fable; 08.27.07 at 10:03 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
    Allow me to introduce you to the 7th Infantry Division (Light):




    The 7thID(L) was the Army's premier light infantry divsion, it was rapidly deployable and was design to operating in "Low Intesity Conflicts" such as Iraq (yes, Iraq is technically a low intensity conflict) where insurgency was expected and anticpated. The 7thID(L)'s main areas of operations were Korea and Central America although they trained to fight in all climates which took them as far away as Iceland and Canada as well as the Sinai desert as UN Peace Keepers. While the 7thID(L)'s masterpiece was "Operation Just Cause" in Panama; where it seized and secured the Canal in eight hours and would spend the next two months assisting 7th Special Forces Group ODA teams in searching and securing the country, the Division also participated in a number of clandestine operations in Honduras, Colombia and the Philippines.

    Counter Insurgency was a big piece of the 7thID(L) training doctrine, as a result they became adept at booby traps (what we call IEDs today) both in detection and deployment. Lightfighters often boobytrapped their booby traps just for fun. The 7thID(L) TO&E included hearts & minds operations and in Panama they treated more people for medical conditions than they killed.

    While an Army squad is supposed to be 8 men, the 7thID(L) was often short on personel so their average squad was 6 men. So they compansated by adding more SAWs to each platoon, the only other unit that did this was the 75 Ranger Regiment. These smaller squads made up for their lack of man power by being the sneakiest bastards ever.



    The 7thID(L) built what is still one of the best MOUT training sites in the world, as witnessed by it's continued use by Army SF and SOF, Navy SEAL teams, CIA, FBI and California SWAT Teams. Unlike MOUT sites at Bragg and Knox, Fort Ord's version was designed to be a confusing maze of buildings crammed close together. It's nickname was "Impossible City":



    This MOUT site made the difference in Panama, where out of 10,000 men deployed they only had 250 wounded and 4 killed in action (2 in a helicopter crash).

    In short, the Army DID have a division that was trained to fight the very kind of war we have now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The reason you've never heard about it is because I haven't finished my book about them. I'm a moderator at the 7thinfantry.com website and I've been adopted the 7th Infantry Association and the 17th Infantry Regimental Association for the work I've been doing to track down records and tell their story.
    Nice man!

    The boys in SOUTHCOM have been doing it right for a long time! Not too many of them made it to CENTCOM in time though. I love Kaplan's take in "Imperial Grunts."

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    11.27.17 @ 11:27 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Dreamer View Post
    Well you don't even need to be Sherlock Holmes to know that some very competent voices were silenced right before the 2003 invasion. General Eric Shinseki had predicted the Iraq clusterfuck, but was "retired" by the "courageous" ideologues of the Bush administration, guys who had never even approached a battlefield their whole life. War pigs indeed...

    If you're responding to me - you're preachin' to da' choir, boy!

    Read, or watch online, PBS' Frontline on Rumsfeld's War here.
    Originally posted by Katydid

    Because I realize you all (the Roth Army) are a bunch of twisted, demented, beastility, porn loving, drug addicts and alcoholics and psycopaths. I guess Devil worshippers more aptly describe you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
    Allow me to introduce you to the 7th Infantry Division (Light):

    ....
    Okay, there's some interesting info. But I wonder if there a semantic distinction between "low intensity conflict" where an army is trying to secure a certain area against partisan attacks for a limited time duration as opposed to an extended campaign to subdue an intractable insurgency while "nation-building."

    Certainly, the generals thought this was a dead concept...
    Originally posted by Katydid

    Because I realize you all (the Roth Army) are a bunch of twisted, demented, beastility, porn loving, drug addicts and alcoholics and psycopaths. I guess Devil worshippers more aptly describe you.

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    11.27.17 @ 11:27 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reckless Fable View Post
    Giving General Shinseki any credibility in this argument is a total canard. Maybe you should have read what Gen Shinseki said and you'd see the absurdity in trusting him to be the sage of any wides-cale counterinsurgency operations. For as much as the initial efforts to handle post-invasion in Iraq were misplayed, Eric Shinseki would have amplified them. He was a Cold Warrior to the bone and had a long history of advocating heavy armor and large troop deployment supported by massive and frequent air-strikes.

    The truth of the matter is, as a few of the commenters have mentioned here, there were very few minds in CENTCOM that fully grasped the nuances of counterinsurgency in high places (guys like General Petraues and General McQuarters of the 3rd Cav). They were few and far between in terms of strategic decision making, but the right guy is there now and hopefully the political climate in Washington can hold out just long enough to give him enough time to work this properly. Things are still messy, but there is a ray of light.

    Anyway, there are a lot of legitimate criticisms to be made about post-invasion handling, but Eric Shinseki is an extremely dubious character to put your faith in.
    You are completely out of you're mind!

    Yes, Shinseki loved his tanks and high-tech artillery systems, But he was also one the few generals that told the truth rather than just accepting the table-scraps that Rummy gave them. He was also a Vietnam vet that had a grasp of CI, and saw Rummy as the disingenuous cunt with his self-defeating "Transformation" of the military which effectively marginalized the brass and smacked of "whiz-kid McNamara" like arrogance, without McNamara's competence and intellect. For speaking out to the Congress Gen. Shinseki was marginalized and essentially persona-non grata within Rumsfeld's Pentagon of ass-lapping yes-men. He was dead-on with his assessment that the US needed at least (about) upwards of 250,000 troops to adequately secure Iraq, which ultimately would have PREVENTED any serious prolonged insurgency. And this was actually less than he secretly advocated to Rummy. In the end, he had little to do with the war planning and cannot in any way be held accountable for Operation Clusterfuck 2003.

    SECURITY is the ultimate counterinsurgency strategy, by preventing the circumstances in which it can fester! Overwhelming force and securing more than a few gov't buildings and the oil fields (of course!) then standing by as the country descended into looting and chaos would have prevented the legions of unemployed Sunni Iraqi ex-soldiers from absorbing Iraq's extensive arms stockpiles. It was Rumsfeld "negotiating" with the commanders, low-balling troop strength for the invasion by over 100,000, among other things, which has gotten us into this mess. But we were supposed to be "greeted like liberators," remember?

    The guy you're actually describing would more likely fit the mold of Gen. Tommy Franks, a callous detached cunt that wanted to get the hell out of Iraq the minute the M-1s entered Baghdad so he could write his book with absolutely no thought of what would follow the collapse of Hussein's regime...
    Originally posted by Katydid

    Because I realize you all (the Roth Army) are a bunch of twisted, demented, beastility, porn loving, drug addicts and alcoholics and psycopaths. I guess Devil worshippers more aptly describe you.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    You are completely out of you're mind!

    Yes, Shinseki loved his tanks and high-tech artillery systems, But he was also one the few generals that told the truth rather than just accepting the table-scraps that Rummy gave them. He was also a Vietnam vet that had a grasp of CI, and saw Rummy as the disingenuous cunt with his self-defeating "Transformation" of the military which effectively marginalized the brass and smacked of "whiz-kid McNamara" like arrogance, without McNamara's competence and intellect. For speaking out to the Congress Gen. Shinseki was marginalized and essentially persona-non grata within Rumsfeld's Pentagon of ass-lapping yes-men. He was dead-on with his assessment that the US needed at least (about) upwards of 250,000 troops to adequately secure Iraq, which ultimately would have PREVENTED any serious prolonged insurgency. And this was actually less than he secretly advocated to Rummy. In the end, he had little to do with the war planning and cannot in any way be held accountable for Operation Clusterfuck 2003.

    SECURITY is the ultimate counterinsurgency strategy, by preventing the circumstances in which it can fester! Overwhelming force and securing more than a few gov't buildings and the oil fields (of course!) then standing by as the country descended into looting and chaos would have prevented the legions of unemployed Sunni Iraqi ex-soldiers from absorbing Iraq's extensive arms stockpiles. It was Rumsfeld "negotiating" with the commanders, low-balling troop strength for the invasion by over 100,000, among other things, which has gotten us into this mess. But we were supposed to be "greeted like liberators," remember?

    The guy you're actually describing would more likely fit the mold of Gen. Tommy Franks, a callous detached cunt that wanted to get the hell out of Iraq the minute the M-1s entered Baghdad so he could write his book with absolutely no thought of what would follow the collapse of Hussein's regime...
    I see. Your argument boils down to who is a "cunt" and who "isn't a cunt." Hmmm. Strangely partisan in your descriptions, too. You surely have mastered the art of lashing out in invective without offering a single substantive comment.

    And, and FYI, if you'd look past the partisan clammors, the DOD had a plan to keep the Iraqi Army intact when Jay Garner was in charge. Disbanding of the Army didn't come until Bremmer and the State Department took over, and that was one of the major policy failures that allowed the insurgency to metastasize.

    Doesn't quite fit your Rumseld is just like McNamara/Vietname/QUAQMIRE!! meme, but then again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything as your mind has already been made up. Hanging on to Eric Shenseki, who at no point anywhere ever mentioned any counterinsurgency option other than flooding the country with 500,000 troops--btw, counterinsurgency is not more bodies and more firepower. The postwar planning was not handled very well, but it would have been far worse had Shenseki gotten his way.

    For those who are interested in a not partisan account, which is a fantastic analysis of what really went wrong up until 2005 (ie, not written by partisan backbiters) check out "Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency in Iraq," by Ahmed Hashim:

    http://www.amazon.com/Insurgency-Cou...8317078&sr=8-1

    Ahmed Hashim is Professor of Strategic Studies at the U.S. Naval War College.

    The silver lining, in this book was how Generals like Petraeus and McQuarters really understood how to conduct a full counterinsurgency. Luckily, one of them is in charge now and the results are starting to show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reckless Fable View Post
    I see. Your argument boils down to who is a "cunt" and who "isn't a cunt."
    Yup! I made a list of who's been a cunty and nice. Then I checked it twice!

    Hmmm. Strangely partisan in your descriptions, too.
    Cite ONE specific example, and why that makes me "partisan"...

    You surely have mastered the art of lashing out in invective without offering a single substantive comment.
    And you've been schooled in the Orwellian art of nuspeak.

    And, and FYI, if you'd look past the partisan clammors, the DOD had a plan to keep the Iraqi Army intact when Jay Garner was in charge.
    ...But no real plan to fight the budding insurgency since it never was factored in.

    Disbanding of the Army didn't come until Bremmer and the State Department took over, and that was one of the major policy failures that allowed the insurgency to metastasize.
    I won't ever defend Viceroy Bremer and the Coalition Provisional Authority, possibly one of the least effective political organizations in modern history...

    But Gen. Abizaid wasn't much better. The fact that he and Bremer hated each others' guts only made things worse. BTW, the same people that brought you Rumsfeld brought you Bremer (oh, was that "partisan?")..

    Doesn't quite fit your Rumsfeld is just like McNamara/Vietname/QUAQMIRE!!
    What "doesn't quite fit?" I never used the word "quagmire," Rumsfeld did! Amost ironic, isn't it? It was an analogy of two controversial secretaries of defense presiding over failed policies and wars. But I never directly compared Vietnam to Iraq, merely leadership styles.

    McNamara had an excuse in dismissing the advice of many of his generals that were in many cases: firepower-loving WWII-vintage hawks that were potentially (nuclear) trigger-happy.

    The ones Rummy marginalized were the lieutenants and captains of the the Vietnam generation that were far more humble and introspective regarding the limits of American power, of the nature of existential threat, and the limitations of military power on whole.

    BTW, I presume McNamara was a Democrat having served successive Dem administrations, the ones that, mostly but not solely, oversaw the Vietnam debacle. So how am I "partisan" again?

    meme, but then again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything as your mind has already been made up.
    About what? That Rumsfeld sucked? I'm in some pretty good, extensive BI-PARTISAN company on that one!

    Hanging on to Eric Shenseki, who at no point anywhere ever mentioned any counterinsurgency option other than flooding the country with 500,000 troops--btw, counterinsurgency is not more bodies and more firepower. The postwar planning was not handled very well, but it would have been far worse had Shenseki gotten his way.
    So you're blaming Shinseki on "the failures he would have had" as opposed to the ones that Rumsfeld and some of his generals presided over?

    (P.S. I also must add something I neglected - that Gen. Shinseki was also commander of the NATO force in Bosnia, the place in which his experience apparently led him to believe that a much larger force was needed than was being proposed by the NeoCons.)

    (there's a Rummy joke there, but I'll refrain )

    So you're blaming a general that might have failed while ignoring the ones, and sort of defending the sec. of defense, who did?

    Again, if General Shinseki had ever said anything publicly regarding the potential for an insurgency, he'd had been castigated even more so than he was. Re-read some of the rhetoric floating around back then. Nobody foresaw this type of large, Sunni-led insurgency because again, we were the "liberators" the mostly Shiite-Iraq disparates, like that CUNT Aman Chalabi, told us we would. And we were dumb enough to believe the worst of them...

    Oh wait, I forgot, it's "partisan" to hold people accountable for their past failures.

    And finally, I think you fail to grasp my point - that any insurgency probably could have been easily contained and snuffed with the changes in easily foreseeable failures. The main one being not sending enough troops to conquer and SECURE a country the size of California or whatever geographic analogy was used at the time. Firepower and more "boots on the ground" is exactly what we needed in the aftermath to consolidate the brief period when nobody was shooting at us.

    If you want a "Republican" take on one of the many blunders indicative of the lack of postwar planning - read what Gen Zinni's (USMC - ret.) had to say (in "Fiasco") on how no one bothered to read an extensive plan that his people wrote up on dealing with a humanitarian crisis and instability in Iraq in the aftermath a hypothetical coup d'état and resulting potential civil war. This was a very detailed plan that would have many implications in a postwar Iraq that was written during his tenure leading "Desert Fox" in the 90s. Apparently no one at the Pentagon or Coalition Authority was even aware of its existence...

    For those who are interested in a not partisan account, which is a fantastic analysis of what really went wrong up until 2005 (ie, not written by partisan backbiters) check out "Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency in Iraq," by Ahmed Hashim:

    http://www.amazon.com/Insurgency-Cou...8317078&sr=8-1

    Ahmed Hashim is Professor of Strategic Studies at the U.S. Naval War College.

    The silver lining, in this book was how Generals like Petraeus and McQuarters really understood how to conduct a full counterinsurgency. Luckily, one of them is in charge now and the results are starting to show.
    Well, for someone that is "not partisan," his findings are similar to Thomas Ricks' "Fiasco."

    And unfortunately, the "results" maybe too little, too late. Especially when the "Iraqi" (Shiite) gov't we support is run by brutal, ineffective and corrupt hacks. The "Surge" means tactics, not strategy.

    The Iraq War can only be settled politically, not militarily. And if our Shiite Iraqi "allies" refuse to offer viable political discourse to the Sunni combatants, then why are we there? Why are out kids dying?
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08.28.07 at 11:15 AM.
    Originally posted by Katydid

    Because I realize you all (the Roth Army) are a bunch of twisted, demented, beastility, porn loving, drug addicts and alcoholics and psycopaths. I guess Devil worshippers more aptly describe you.

 

 

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