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  1. #1
    Baluchitherium
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    Default The One's That Got Away

    Disclaimer: lol I'm a much bigger DLR era fan than Sammy but I don't totally disrespect what Sammy brought to this band. IMO it stopped being "Van Halen" when Sammy joined but there's Sammy era tunes that you cant deny are good, which I enjoy.

    How wacky it may seem I love the tune "Not Enough" I really think that's a gem in their collaboration even though it's a mellow "cheese" ballad or whatever. :P


    Ok... so.... One's that got away. Again not dissin' on Sammy but a song like Amersterdam. Awesome Guitar riff, pretty good vocal melodies/ performance with so so lyrics on the verse. The vocal melody is in a good place there I think. But the chorus and all? Cool guitar but bad fking vocal chorus and melody. The chorus ruins the song for me.


    I remember OLD articles of Ed saying something like "Al and I just come up with stuff we think is cool and I'm amazed Dave can come up with what he does over it". ...he was basically giving Dave praise for adding a dimension to the music he didn't see or expect. There is/was a chemistry between Ed and Dave musically.

    So tunes like Amsterdam, Dave being part of that may have made that tune another classic where now it's a genius idea squandered, imo.

    hehe This is a silly thread but what do you all think? Don't any of you hear that guitar in that tune and think what a waste?

    Are there any others that have gotten away in your opinions?
    Last edited by At0micPunk; 08.25.07 at 02:41 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by At0micPunk View Post
    Disclaimer: lol I'm a much bigger DLR era fan than Sammy but I don't totally disrespect what Sammy brought to this band. IMO it stopped being "Van Halen" when Sammy joined but there's Sammy era tunes that you cant deny are good, which I enjoy.

    How wacky it may seem I love the tune "Not Enough" I really think that's a gem in their collaboration even though it's a mellow "cheese" ballad or whatever. :P


    Ok... so.... One's that got away. Again not dissin' on Sammy but a song like Amersterdam. Awesome Guitar riff, pretty good vocal melodies/ performance with so so lyrics on the verse. The vocal melody is in a good place there I think. But the chorus and all? Cool guitar but bad fking vocal chorus and melody. The chorus ruins the song for me.


    I remember OLD articles of Ed saying something like "Al and I just come up with stuff we think is cool and I'm amazed Dave can come up with what he does over it". ...he was basically giving Dave praise for adding a dimension to the music he didn't see or expect. There is/was a chemistry between Ed and Dave musically.

    So tunes like Amsterdam, Dave being part of that may have made that tune another classic where now it's a genius idea squandered, imo.

    hehe This is a silly thread but what do you all think? Don't any of you hear that guitar in that tune and think what a waste?

    Are there any others that have gotten away in your opinions?
    I didn't care for ANYTHING that Dave did on the two BOV1 songs, and in my opinion he took away from what could have been two instant classic and awesome songs in all areas. The quality of the writing, production, recording, and mix was never so good (in my opinion) in everything but the vocals, but Dave's less-than-clever lyrics (NOTHING like the FW or 1984 days) and pathetic melodies--MWM especially--and terrible performances make me have to do my best to just tune him out and focus on everything else. Actually, the melody to CGTSNM is okay, but it was mostly written by Ed and Sammy (who was given a buyout after he heard it and threatened to sue), but the lyrics are just plain fucking AWFUL; it's Dave's "Up For Breakfast."

    Sammy had his shortcomings with VH, but I don't think we would have heard anything better from Dave; his inability to reinvent himself since the late-80s would have meant we'd be hearing a burned out parody-of-himself version of Dave on VH--like the BOV1 tunes.

  3. #3
    Eruption Gypsy King's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 10:01 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by At0micPunk View Post
    The chorus ruins the song for me.
    I agree. "Amsterdam" is great until the vocal melody in the chorus. There was so much potential for that song to be a classic rocker. The rythm of that song has a really cool groove.

    When I listen to VH, being a guitar player myself, I mainly listen to Edward's guitar. As far as the vocals in a song, I usually just notice the melody that is created by the vocals. I do this with most of the rock music that I listen to. The only band that I find interesting lyrically is Rush.

    I will admit, I am more of a Dave-era fan of VH. Regardless, there are some great tunes that VH did with Sammy (Humans Being, Summer Nights, 5150, Source of Infection, Pleasure Dome, Feelin'). Just my opinion.

  4. #4
    Forum Frontman Double Down's Avatar
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    11.17.17 @ 12:11 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewThomas.net View Post
    I didn't care for ANYTHING that Dave did on the two BOV1 songs, and in my opinion he took away from what could have been two instant classic and awesome songs in all areas. The quality of the writing, production, recording, and mix was never so good (in my opinion) in everything but the vocals, but Dave's less-than-clever lyrics (NOTHING like the FW or 1984 days) and pathetic melodies--MWM especially--and terrible performances make me have to do my best to just tune him out and focus on everything else. Actually, the melody to CGTSNM is okay, but it was mostly written by Ed and Sammy (who was given a buyout after he heard it and threatened to sue), but the lyrics are just plain fucking AWFUL; it's Dave's "Up For Breakfast."

    Sammy had his shortcomings with VH, but I don't think we would have heard anything better from Dave; his inability to reinvent himself since the late-80s would have meant we'd be hearing a burned out parody-of-himself version of Dave on VH--like the BOV1 tunes.

    Awesome post, Andrew. My sentiments exactly.



    I'm a very big fan of the Sam-era, but yeah, Amsterdam's chorus is lacking and a few others pop into my head:

    Black N Blue - One of the dumbest line's I've ever heard in a song ("....do it til we're black n blue.."). Give this a different set of lyrics and chorus and it could go down as a Top 3 Sam era song.

    Get Up - This whole song is train wreck from beginning to end. Ed missed on the guitar riffs and Sam certainly missed on the lyrics. Awful song.

    Source Of Infection
    - Another phenomenal effort by Ed but Sam totally fucked up the chorus. Another awful effort on that one.

    I guess this is one thread that can legitimately turn into a Dave vs. Sam thread because the topic dictates it. You can't possibly talk about Sam's "shortcomings" without asking, "what would Dave have done in this scenario?"
    .
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    VH with Dave ('78-'84) - The best years....the "real" VH.
    VH with Sam ('86-'96) - Incredible era....."We have renamed this town 'New Halen!'.
    VH with Gary ('98) - Fucking disaster. WTF was that??
    VH with Wolf/Dave ('12-'15) - Amazing comeback. Smokin' album and tours.

  5. #5
    Banned! Apocalypso's Avatar
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    A few off the top of my head:

    The failure to release "Lucille" in '82 as a single which was briefly considered to be the follow-up song for the relative flop of the "Fair Warning" album not having a hit single ("Pretty Woman" eventually got that honor). They played it at least once live in '81 and while a raw, rough version, it would have been an admirable addition to the cover songs they've done up to that point.

    Not including "Down In Flames" on any Roth era album.

    "One Foot Out The Door." Roth's lyrics made what was a very interesting song a throwaway tune. Same with "Hang 'Em High," one of my very favorite songs instrumentally, but I hate the theme, lyrics and heavy echo/reverb teatment done of Dave's voice in the tune.

    "Learning To See." Easily the best song of the 3 '04 tunes at least instrumentally, but Hagar's lyrics and painful screaming at the end ruin this song.

    T.B.

  6. #6
    Sinner's Swing!
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    I know its popular amongs the "linkster" but I'm not crazy about the verses in "Human Beings". Couldn't imagine Dave doing better but it kinda feels 1/2 ass to me.
    I've always been curious as to what Dave would have done with some of the 5150 songs, not that I didn't like Sammy on that album. It is my fave Sammy-era release. But I remember hearing "Good Enough" and the song "5150" and wondering what would Dave had done.

  7. #7
    Atomic Punk Bad to the Bone's Avatar
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    12.13.17 @ 12:34 PM
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    hmmmm....I must be in the monority, I like Amsterdam, I don't know why. I admit the lyrics aren't the most "thoughtful" of alltime but I like the song as a whole, I would have liked it if they stuck with the ending jam when they recorded it so it came off a little more like the live version instead of just fading out. I also like get up...hmmm.

    If anyone has the Dallas Free show from 91, there's a jam that they do at the end, Ed, Al and Mike go into it and Sammy flat out says "I don't know what's going on" and comes up wih something off the top of his head-now wether that's true or not I don't know but I loved it and wish they would have explored that on Balance.

    Songs i think they missed on? I think they really missed out by doing so many cover songs on DD, the originals are awsome on that album. I wish they would have released I want some action and I think they really missed it by not recording a new CD in 93 and going with the live disk. FUCK is a great disk to me and I think if they followed it up while Sam and Ed were still getting along it would have been great. Balance has it's moments but I think they just rushed the shit out of it-they wrote and recorded it in like 3 months, if they would have taken a little more time on some things it would have turned out much better, not that I think it's a bad disk I just think some of the stuff is rushed. I thinkt hey missed the boat with feelings, I know they were going for an "epic" song but it just misses out to me. The 3 new songs in 04 are wishy washy....sometimes I love em, sometimes I hate em. LTS is great, I love the ending, I think it's heavy as hell. I think if Ed would have been sober and if they would have really worked on getting along again they could have been alot more.....

  8. #8
    Romeo Delight Im On Fire's Avatar
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    I totally respect Sammy as an artist and due to the fact he was a big star before he joined VH I accepted him.

    Lets face the one and only fact, no one could fill Roth's shoes.

    Roth was the show man, Hagar was the singer.

    Dave had attitude and needed all the attention, Sam was laid back.

    As far as the live show go...I'll quote Mr Roth,

    "Sammy throws a party, I am the party."

    Van Halen was a 10 with David Lee and 7 with Sammy.

    Peace

  9. #9
    Baluchitherium
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    Thanks for the responses I'm not trying to be an instigator with the thread. We all have our opinions and often times we won't agree. It's interesting to read what others think and why.
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  10. #10
    Eruption Model Citizen's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 06:30 AM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypso View Post
    Same with "Hang 'Em High," one of my very favorite songs instrumentally, but I hate the theme, lyrics and heavy echo/reverb teatment done of Dave's voice in the tune.

    Dude...Hang 'Em High rules from start to finish!

  11. #11
    Baluchitherium
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewThomas.net View Post
    I don't think we would have heard anything better from Dave; his inability to reinvent himself since the late-80s would have meant we'd be hearing a burned out parody-of-himself version of Dave on VH--like the BOV1 tunes.

    I don't know about burned out.... and not sure those two tunes and the circumstances in which they were created is the same as being in the whole time and comfortably creating music with your band.

    Also I didn't know musicians had to continually reinvent themselves and keep up with trends, the times, or fashion 100%. When did that become the rule or the standard to judge by? ACDC, The Stones, Bob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, are examples of bands/musicians who found their strides and just basically stayed true to it. I kinda respect that, keeping true to who you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by At0micPunk View Post
    I don't know about burned out.... and not sure those two tunes and the circumstances in which they were created is the same as being in the whole time and comfortably creating music with your band.

    Also I didn't know musicians had to continually reinvent themselves and keep up with trends, the times, or fashion 100%. When did that become the rule or the standard to judge by? ACDC, The Stones, Bob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, are examples of bands/musicians who found their strides and just basically stayed true to it. I kinda respect that, keeping true to who you are.
    Dude, I never said Dave had to be someone he's not or follow a trend. VH never did, and Dave wouldn't have had to either. You know how every VH record from one to the next was different in character, look, and sound (and the band as well)? That's what I'm talking about. They did it for the first six, and they continued it on the next four with Sammy. I remember thinking--my first impression--of Dave on the BOV1 was that VH had just evolved to a point that Dave couldn't grasp onto. (And I was REALLY looking forward to what they were gonna do with Dave while we were all waiting to hear those two new songs.)

  13. #13
    Romeo Delight Guitar Dave's Avatar
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    10.09.07 @ 11:17 AM
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    Originally Posted by AndrewThomas.net
    I didn't care for ANYTHING that Dave did on the two BOV1 songs, and in my opinion he took away from what could have been two instant classic and awesome songs in all areas. The quality of the writing, production, recording, and mix was never so good (in my opinion) in everything but the vocals, but Dave's less-than-clever lyrics (NOTHING like the FW or 1984 days) and pathetic melodies--MWM especially--and terrible performances make me have to do my best to just tune him out and focus on everything else. Actually, the melody to CGTSNM is okay, but it was mostly written by Ed and Sammy (who was given a buyout after he heard it and threatened to sue), but the lyrics are just plain fucking AWFUL; it's Dave's "Up For Breakfast."

    Sammy had his shortcomings with VH, but I don't think we would have heard anything better from Dave; his inability to reinvent himself since the late-80s would have meant we'd be hearing a burned out parody-of-himself version of Dave on VH--like the BOV1 tunes.

    Dave didn't write the lyrics to those songs, neither did Sam. In an interview Ed said that he and a man by the name of Mike Ballard wrote those two. Ed said he would always work with the guy, but that was then I guess. They just brought Dave in to "interpret the words." I always personally felt Sammy was a much better solo artist, he has more creative freedom.

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk Bad to the Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Dave View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewThomas.net
    I didn't care for ANYTHING that Dave did on the two BOV1 songs, and in my opinion he took away from what could have been two instant classic and awesome songs in all areas. The quality of the writing, production, recording, and mix was never so good (in my opinion) in everything but the vocals, but Dave's less-than-clever lyrics (NOTHING like the FW or 1984 days) and pathetic melodies--MWM especially--and terrible performances make me have to do my best to just tune him out and focus on everything else. Actually, the melody to CGTSNM is okay, but it was mostly written by Ed and Sammy (who was given a buyout after he heard it and threatened to sue), but the lyrics are just plain fucking AWFUL; it's Dave's "Up For Breakfast."

    Sammy had his shortcomings with VH, but I don't think we would have heard anything better from Dave; his inability to reinvent himself since the late-80s would have meant we'd be hearing a burned out parody-of-himself version of Dave on VH--like the BOV1 tunes.

    Dave didn't write the lyrics to those songs, neither did Sam. In an interview Ed said that he and a man by the name of Mike Ballard wrote those two. Ed said he would always work with the guy, but that was then I guess. They just brought Dave in to "interpret the words." I always personally felt Sammy was a much better solo artist, he has more creative freedom.

    Sam specifically states in an interview that VH used parts of "the backdoor shuffle" in CGTSNM, now Sam might be a bullshitter about some stuff but he said in that same interview that he called daniels and told him he wanted some $$$ or there would be trouble and I think he siad he got a check out of it. The one thing that leads me to believe that this is true is that at that time Ray Daniels was responding to everything Sammy said in the press and he never responded to that.

    I think Sam said that they used his melody or something like that.

  15. #15
    Baluchitherium Mikey Metalhead's Avatar
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    I have never understood why people dont like the lyrics to asterdam or black and blue... its rock and roll, not fucking save the world rocket science U2 shit.

    I lean slightly towards Dave fan, but poor Sammy cant win. people knock him for being cheesy, then knock him for doing exactly what Dave would have done.

    black and blue is fucking classic rock and roll.
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