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  1. #1
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    (On the high school clothing thread things got sidetracked by something interesting. Thought it deserved it's own thread)

    On that thread there were comments about certain actors and their "un-american" behaviour. It just struck me as odd that someone who was trying to make their country (in their view at least) a better place could be perceived as being unpatriotic. I would have thought that if they didn't care at all for their country,then they would just go and live someplace else.
    I find it remarkable, especially since most of the criticisms of recent years have been about wars, that some people believe we shouldn't question our leaders,especially in times of war. To take a country into conflict is a massive undertaking and if people believe the war is not justified, I would have thought that it is more "patriotic" to voice our opinions.
    Prior to Iraq, in England millions of people demonstrated in all major cities, trying to tell Tony Blair that we didn't believe in it or want it. We were ignored and he sent the troops in. Then we were told that it was a regrettable necessity but that, now that the forces had gone in, we should be 100% behind our boys, as though that now made everything OK and that we were somehow unpatriotic if we said we disagreed with the invasion.
    Thankfully most Brits realise that unpatriotic is sending young men and women to die for an un unjust and illegal cause, rather than trying to stop them dying.
    Last time I looked, most western countries were still just about hanging onto some shreds of democracy. To disagree with a government and to be called unpatriotic smells a bit too close to Orwell for my liking.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  2. #2
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    It's become fashionable among those that let others do the thinking for them to use that phrase. It's just another way to pigeon-hole an idea or person without having to actually engage them.

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk
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    Wendel Wilke, the anti-war Republican, had the same problem durring WWII.
    There's a big difference between Wilke and what passes for dissent and political dissagreement today. From the late 1960s the dialogue has changed from constructive, reasoned and measured critism of the government's policies that you saw in the early "Sit-In"s at Berkeley and Harvard; where students sat quietly what BOTH sides patiently debated, to the calculated campus riots where the North Vietnamese flag was proudly waved as the Stars and Stripes was burned. The "Movement" had lost it's focus from getting our troops out of Vietnam to overthrow of the U.S. Government and trashing all of America's ideals. The Weathermen Underground were the Al Qaeda of their day, killing people with bombs- in the name of Peace.

    As the U.S. and the U.K. went to war with Iraq, the folks in both countries who were against the idea found themselves drowned out by Troglodytes anti-war-types from the Vietnam era . Instead of reasoned debate about what kind of threat Iraq posed in the immediate tense, anti-war rallies we turned into Anti-American festivals, with speeches that featured all kinds of allegations and outlandish charges that had nothing to do with the oncoming war. Palestinian flags dottet every march, not flown by actual Palestinians but by black Muslems from the Nation of Islam and in some cases college kids of non-Palestinian middle-eastern decent. As the anit-war crowd constantly points out, Al Qaeda had nothing to do with 9/11, so WTF does a Palestinian flag have to do with the U.S. invading Iraq? Nothing. On the other hand it tells me a lot about the person flying that flag and the people around it, it tells me thatn they are either racist or stupid or both.
    The flag represents terrorism and anti-semitism, the person flying that flag has picked an anti-American stance. That nobody in the crowd has the good sense to pull the Palestinain flag down makes a powerful anti-American statement, that they'd rather march with anti-semitic, anti-Amercian terrorists than go to war in Iraq. If that's my choice then give me war in Iraq. The Troglodytes, as they always do, pull out their laundry list of "Crimes" committed by the United States (none of them having anything to do with our invsion of Iraq) and give long-winded speeches about the evils of America. Their facts, such as they are, taken grossly out of historical context are used to justify their anti-war stance. At no point is Iraq's history of lies and mass murder brought to light, again bringing me to ask who's side are these people on?
    Then we come to the celebrities. It's not just that they're against the war, it's that they're ALWAYS against whatever a Republican President is doing. Nixon, Reagan and the first Bush would bring out the leftist Hollywood types to protest whatever they were doing. They were strangely silent when Clinton attacked Iraq in 1999 nor did they protest when Clinton took NATO into Kosovo, without a UN mandate. The thing is that some of these same celebrities are simply awful people to be around in person. Not all, Martin Sheen is a genuinely nice person and he can also make an informed arguement for his perspective and he'll listen to your side as well (plus he's willing to go to jail for his beliefs, that makes him a first-class American in my book). Tim Robbins is another guy who's poltics I can't stand but he's a responsible dissentor and debator. Then you've got some who are just mean. While they proclaim to be for the "People" they don't actually want to mix with the unwashed. They treat their house staff like slaves, treat the general public as an inconvenience and tip poorly. It's really had to listen to them talk about how Bush has hurt the poor on CNN when just two weeks before they were terrorizing the housekeeping staff of a near by hotel because the pillow cases didn't have the right thread-count and demanding that a waitress be fired because she had the nerve to make eye-contact.
    I know it's not entirely fair to jump on celebrities, we only hear soundbites here and there, we don't hear the whole conversation, just the meaty/provocative stuff. Tim Robbins might talk for an hour about baseball but if he makes an off-hand remark about the President then that's what gets into print.

    John Wilkes Boothe was an actor, he shot Abraham Lincoln, a President who divided his country with an illegal war.

    You can protest the war in patriotic ways. I've just never seen anybody do it.
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  4. #4
    Atomic Punk Viking's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 03:26 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300
    You can protest the war in patriotic ways. I've just never seen anybody do it.
    Your whole post was excellent, but it was long, and I felt it was redundant to quote the whole thing, so I just picked this last part which hits the nail on the head.

    I didn't know that about Sheen or Robbins. I'll be kinder towards them when voicing my opinions in the future.
    "Viking - last to sleep, first to rise, last to leave, that's how the Nords of old rocked the house." ~ timmac in the 'Texas Linkers' thread talking about yours truly. :-)

  5. #5
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300
    As the U.S. and the U.K. went to war with Iraq, the folks in both countries who were against the idea found themselves drowned out by Troglodytes anti-war-types from the Vietnam era . Instead of reasoned debate about what kind of threat Iraq posed in the immediate tense, anti-war rallies we turned into Anti-American festivals, with speeches that featured all kinds of allegations and outlandish charges that had nothing to do with the oncoming war. Palestinian flags dottet every march, not flown by actual Palestinians but by black Muslems from the Nation of Islam and in some cases college kids of non-Palestinian middle-eastern decent. As the anit-war crowd constantly points out, Al Qaeda had nothing to do with 9/11, so WTF does a Palestinian flag have to do with the U.S. invading Iraq? Nothing. On the other hand it tells me a lot about the person flying that flag and the people around it, it tells me thatn they are either racist or stupid or both.
    The flag represents terrorism and anti-semitism, the person flying that flag has picked an anti-American stance. That nobody in the crowd has the good sense to pull the Palestinain flag down makes a powerful anti-American statement, that they'd rather march with anti-semitic, anti-Amercian terrorists than go to war in Iraq. If that's my choice then give me war in Iraq. The Troglodytes, as they always do, pull out their laundry list of "Crimes" committed by the United States (none of them having anything to do with our invsion of Iraq) and give long-winded speeches about the evils of America. Their facts, such as they are, taken grossly out of historical context are used to justify their anti-war stance. At no point is Iraq's history of lies and mass murder brought to light, again bringing me to ask who's side are these people on?
    What about Americans who actually donít agree with the war, and other policies of our government? You are addressing the minority idiots with your examples. Again, youíre talking about something that is not the main issue. The main issue here that you, Viking, and HH seem to be pushing is that if you arenít 100% up our governmentís ass, you are ďAnti-AmericanĒ, and that is bullshit!

    Then we come to the celebrities. It's not just that they're against the war, it's that they're ALWAYS against whatever a Republican President is doing. Nixon, Reagan and the first Bush would bring out the leftist Hollywood types to protest whatever they were doing. They were strangely silent when Clinton attacked Iraq in 1999 nor did they protest when Clinton took NATO into Kosovo, without a UN mandate. The thing is that some of these same celebrities are simply awful people to be around in person. Not all, Martin Sheen is a genuinely nice person and he can also make an informed arguement for his perspective and he'll listen to your side as well (plus he's willing to go to jail for his beliefs, that makes him a first-class American in my book). Tim Robbins is another guy who's poltics I can't stand but he's a responsible dissentor and debator. Then you've got some who are just mean. While they proclaim to be for the "People" they don't actually want to mix with the unwashed. They treat their house staff like slaves, treat the general public as an inconvenience and tip poorly. It's really had to listen to them talk about how Bush has hurt the poor on CNN when just two weeks before they were terrorizing the housekeeping staff of a near by hotel because the pillow cases didn't have the right thread-count and demanding that a waitress be fired because she had the nerve to make eye-contact.
    I know it's not entirely fair to jump on celebrities, we only hear soundbites here and there, we don't hear the whole conversation, just the meaty/provocative stuff. Tim Robbins might talk for an hour about baseball but if he makes an off-hand remark about the President then that's what gets into print.
    You have an obvious dislike for celebrities, and it makes your argument against them seem infantile. Besides, I donít give two shits about how they are as a person. That has nothing to do with their right to disagree with our government.

    You seem to think your opinion of what healthy dissent is should be accepted by everyone, and if it doesnít fall into the frame youíve put it in, then it isnít ďrealĒ American dissent, itís just ďAnti-AmericanĒ.


    John Wilkes Boothe was an actor, he shot Abraham Lincoln, a President who divided his country with an illegal war.
    And your overdramatic point is?

    You can protest the war in patriotic ways. I've just never seen anybody do it.
    Bullshit. Plain and simple bullshit.

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk Viking's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 03:26 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradS
    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300
    You can protest the war in patriotic ways. I've just never seen anybody do it.
    Bullshit. Plain and simple bullshit.
    In a way, you're right. People like us, (And I'll include you in this statement) do it everyday. I don't agree with everything our government does, in fact I disagree with plenty, but I don't have to go out and burn our flag, visit with Saddam Hussein, etc., to make my point.
    "Viking - last to sleep, first to rise, last to leave, that's how the Nords of old rocked the house." ~ timmac in the 'Texas Linkers' thread talking about yours truly. :-)

  7. #7
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    In a way, you're right. People like us, (And I'll include you in this statement) do it everyday. I don't agree with everything our government does, in fact I disagree with plenty, but I don't have to go out and burn our flag, visit with Saddam Hussein, etc., to make my point.
    ...and that is your right, Viking. It is also the right of every American, if they choose, to burn the flag or protest like they feel they should. They may be dumbasses for burning the flag, but they should have the right to do it.

    Celebrities are citizens of this country too. If they or anyone else wants to protest the war, or government policies, then they should be allowed to...in their way, not the way Axx thinks is appropriate.

  8. #8
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.18.17 @ 09:38 AM
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    I do think the phrase "un-American" gets bandied about too freely sometimes. I'm sure we all engage in behaviours that could be termed "un-American" if someone were to nitpick. Drive a gas-guzzling car during this time of high energy costs? That could be considered "un-American". Ever throw a piece of trash on the ground or out your car window (that includes your cigarette butts) - your littering and despoiling the American soil - how much more "un-American" can you be? Buy goods manufactured in other countries, or travel abroad? Well, you're not supporting the American economy or it's workforce, you must be "un-American". But of course we don't deem these behaviours to be "un-American", because we all do them (or some of them). But where to draw the line?

    The thing about celebrities that gets me, and I've said it before, is they'll come down from their hilltop and scream and rant and say how unfair the system is, and then lock the gate and run back up to their hilltop estate and return to counting their money (when they should be counting their blessings that their 15 minutes hasn't expired yet). They think nothing of degrading the morals of society and engaging in boorish behaviour in public, but then when it comes to the "issues", they think their voice should somehow carry more weight. There are some that actually get down and get their hands dirty, and for those I offer thanks, whether they are working for a cause I believe in or not. But for those who want to be heard just for another photo op, I say "shut up". You may not be "un-American", but you sure are a jerk.

    It is hard when you have a war that we are having, where peoples' support can change from day to day. We all get tired of hearing the stories of soldiers dying on the news, but we also must realise that there are soldiers left behind, and those that do not agree with the war, must be careful to offer their opinion in a way that doesn't give ammunition to the "bad guys" that they feel justified in their methods of attack. The boys aren't coming home anytime soon, they could use all the support we can give.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk Viking's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 03:26 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy007

    The thing about celebrities that gets me, and I've said it before, is they'll come down from their hilltop and scream and rant and say how unfair the system is, and then lock the gate and run back up to their hilltop estate and return to counting their money (when they should be counting their blessings that their 15 minutes hasn't expired yet). They think nothing of degrading the morals of society and engaging in boorish behaviour in public, but then when it comes to the "issues", they think their voice should somehow carry more weight. There are some that actually get down and get their hands dirty, and for those I offer thanks, whether they are working for a cause I believe in or not. But for those who want to be heard just for another photo op, I say "shut up". You may not be "un-American", but you sure are a jerk.
    I tried like hell to figure out how to put what you've put so eloquently into a post and couldn't do it. Very well said.
    "Viking - last to sleep, first to rise, last to leave, that's how the Nords of old rocked the house." ~ timmac in the 'Texas Linkers' thread talking about yours truly. :-)

  10. #10
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    11.19.17 @ 09:41 AM
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    [QUOTE=billy007]The thing about celebrities that gets me, and I've said it before, is they'll come down from their hilltop and scream and rant and say how unfair the system is, and then lock the gate and run back up to their hilltop estate and return to counting their money (when they should be counting their blessings that their 15 minutes hasn't expired yet). They think nothing of degrading the morals of society and engaging in boorish behaviour in public, but then when it comes to the "issues", they think their voice should somehow carry more weight. There are some that actually get down and get their hands dirty, and for those I offer thanks, whether they are working for a cause I believe in or not. But for those who want to be heard just for another photo op, I say "shut up". You may not be "un-American", but you sure are a jerk.

    QUOTE]

    I agree and disagree with you on this one, but well written nonetheless.
    I agree in that, if an actor gave me an acting lesson I would listen. If they give me a lesson on anything else I would first question whether or not they had any particular extra knowledge than I did. I've always found "soapboxing because of social status" to be a very uncomfortable experience. Most people at some point have cringed at the outbursts of Bono or Sting, where it seems that we are being talked to like little children who don't know what they know, regardless of how heartfelt or even correct they might be. Nobody likes to be talked down to. Having said that, if you listen to the recent Charlie Sheen interview with AlexJones (1st one) you would hear that he is actually quite reticent,as though he is aware of how he might come off if he claimed to have "extra knowledge" than anyone who roams the net. He used phrases like "it seems to me" or " I just figure we should perhaps be asking questions" rather than " hey people, time to wake the fuck up". In general though, some or even a lot of these [people can come across badly.
    I would disagree on a slight tangent though in that, these people are interviewed over and over again as part of our celebrity obsessed culture andit is only natural that such issues might arise at the behest of the interviewer. Once we know what the film is about, how many drugs they used to take and what they eat for breakfast, interviewers are going to look for a different angle.
    I often wonder ,as Sammy Hagar is berated for slagging off the brothers VH on these very boards, if he would rather not be asked those questions altogether. It's just good news for a rag and people would rather read someone going after ex colleagues than about how happy and successful someone has become.
    On an earlier post someone mentioned about driving gas guzzlers or throwing litter perhaps being perceived as un-patriotic. Upthe scale abit and we can all of us easily call all of our leaders unpatriotic for abusing our countries enviroments as badly as they have done in the search for the "mighty dollar, euro, pound, yen or ruble". That is true litter bugging on a grand scale. You bet they won't live next to a nuclear recycling plant or heavy toxin polluted river.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  11. #11
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    BTW, if I sounded like a looney sandalista on my last post I should point out that I am just as guilty as the average Joe. With the exception of making sure my wine bottles go in for recycling, I do very little proactively. As I get older, my own actions are starting to cause me concern. Especially my wine consumption.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

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  12. #12
    Hang 'Em High RRMB's Avatar
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    05.21.17 @ 06:42 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by graeme
    ... As I get older, my own actions are starting to cause me concern. Especially my wine consumption.
    It's okay "Eddie" we understand.
    "Jesus, that fucker just crawled out of his hen house that was destroyed by the Alabama tornados. Fucking 280mph plus winds sucked the gleam off this bitch and passed it on to a bird in Rhoad Island." - Hurricane Halen 5/3/11 (about my birthday chicken from seenbad)

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  13. #13
    Sinner's Swing! graeme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrockinmonkeyboy
    It's okay "Eddie" we understand.
    Shit.They're onto me.
    A man could lose himself in a country like this.

    My blog at http://tollins.blogspot.de/

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk
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    What about Americans who actually donít agree with the war, and other policies of our government? You are addressing the minority idiots with your examples. Again, youíre talking about something that is not the main issue. The main issue here that you, Viking, and HH seem to be pushing is that if you arenít 100% up our governmentís ass, you are ďAnti-AmericanĒ, and that is bullshit!
    A. I'm not pushing Jack.

    B. Are they the minority? How am I supposed to know? The people are allowed to march down the streets with their flags and banner along with everyone else. If their message is inconsistant with the important message, why don't protest organizers yank those people out? They sure shut down Pro-Bush/Pro-War demonstrators pretty damn quick, check out protest warrior.com, talk about oppression. That these "minority idiots" are allowed in protest marches tells me everything I need to know about the anti-war movement. If they're message isn't YOUR message then it's up to you to tell them to STFU. Because Viking, HH and I will gleefully beat you over the head with their words and actions just as you would if the KKK showed up at a Pro-war rally.

    C. I'm consistant with my critisim of the U.S. Government, this sets me a part from the Nimrods in the street. The FDA decided to pull Primateen Mist from the shelves based on bad environmentalist policy, not science, and the result will be an additional 50,000 dead African-American children under the age 12 because they cannot afford prescription meds. Were's the outrage ? Where are the marchers now? The United States government just decided to kill 50,000 black kids and nobody says a peep. I did. I wrote my Congress rat and Senator and the NAACP. I seem to be the only person that's bothered by the needless deaths of kids IN THIS COUNTRY at the hands of a government pencil-pusher.

    You have an obvious dislike for celebrities, and it makes your argument against them seem infantile. Besides, I donít give two shits about how they are as a person. That has nothing to do with their right to disagree with our government.
    Actually, who they are has everything to do with with my distain for their political philosophies. I'm a big-time liberal, I have a big problem with people who talk the talk but when it comes time to walk the walk they retreat behind a tall hedge , lock the door to their mansion and pretend not to hear the masses. Most celebrities are actually okay people, I've already said Martain Sheen is a stand-up guy. The problem is that there are a few celebrities who've made a point to be visible in their politics and their personal conduct doesn't match their political views. Barbara Streisand is the easiest target for the "Let The Eat Cake" award. She goes on Oprah and says that Americans should learn to be happy with less. The next week she goes home to MALIBU and has her entire landscaping re-done to the tune of a couple million bucks. She throws fund-raising concerts in her backyard for the Democratic Party and talks about how the party is good for the "People". This is the same woman who forbids people working on her movie sets to make eye-contact and refuses to give autographs. Plus, all of these celebrities put their money into tax-free bonds and anuities and shelters, chances are that you and I paid more income-tax than many celebs did this year. So when they talk about the government spending money they're talking about YOUR money. Do they donate their money to charity? Sure, most do for tax reasons and a few actually give a shit. Clooney gets a bad rap that he doesn't deserve, I don't agree with his politics but I respect him as a person because he does give a shit and gives money that the doesn't have to when there's something that needs attention.


    You have to understand, I live in California, there's a protest somewhere every day. In San Francisco they have so many that tey have to schedual them. You name it, AIDS, Gay Rights, Anti-War, Anti-US Central American Policy, Anti-US African AIDS policy, Anti-China, Anti-US/China Trade, Animal Rights, NAMBLA, Anti-NAMBLA, Save The Redwoods, Tear Down Hetch Hetchy,Keep * so and so** School Open, Re-Open the Bathhouses, Pay The Teachers More, Ban Capital Punishment and so on and so on and so on.

    What I want to know is since when has this crap ever worked? Short answer:

    Never

    What did the anti-war crowd actually achieve in the 1960s?

    They got Nixon elected and then RE-elected.

    In the 80s, the Peaceniks got Reagan elected and re-elected.

    For all of the people who've marched against this current affair in Iraq, what have they achieved? A second Bush term.

    Thank you so very fucking much.

    It seems to me, the only way to get a Republican out of the White House is if he WINS a war, like Bush Sr did with Desert Storm.

    The problem is that the anti-war types from Vietnam to today can't focus. They can't keep the rhetoric civil and polite. Worst of all they can't keep it honest. Instead of simply saying that we've done all that we can in Iraq , that we've done our best and now it's time to pack up and go home with our heads held high, they've got to make inflamitory remarks and allegations that are untrue. We're in Iraq to establish a forward operating base in the middle east (Lie. We already have Dubai and these things called Aircraft Carriers). Bush lied about WMDs (Lie. He was assured by the director of Central Intelligence and just about every Middle Eastern leader that Iraq DID have them. Even the Iraqi Army thought they had them.) and that this is an illegal war (nope, technically Iraq was in violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreement they signed.). Why do they feel that they have to fabricate charges to make their point? The best case in favor of a US pullout is the Iraqi people themselves, we've been there for three years and they still can't get their shit together, hell, they're not even shooting at us anymore; our guys are just getting killed in the crossfire.
    Then you've got the anti-war types lumping Iraq with Afghanistan. Are you kidding me? I'm all for declaring victory in Iraq and going home but Afghanistan is a different story, that's where Al Qaeda and UBL happen to get their mail. What's the motive behind demanding we pull out of Afghanistan? Who benifits? Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Is that what they anti-war types want? Afghanistan has gone better than we thought it would and while it's far from perfect it been a sucess.

    I guess what I want to know is why is it that I can make a better agruement against the war in Iraq than the people who are against it?

    Also, if they can't make an intelligent, reasoned and measured case against the war why should I have to wait around intil they do?

    If we were now three years into a situation with Iraq that was foisted by a Gore administration going into it's sixth year, would the shouts be as loud for withdrawl?

    I don't have all the answers, I'm not even that bright, but I do know my ass from a hole in the ground and I refuse to buy a pig in a poke.
    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


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  15. #15
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Nice rant.

 

 

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