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  1. #1
    Eruption
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    Default NSA telephone/email intercepts...

    ...i've been giving this one a lot of thought...

    but, as yet, have not reached any conclusions...

    i'm soliciting arguments opposed and in favor.

    let's hear em.

  2. #2
    Good Enough Rocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousDooDoo
    ...i've been giving this one a lot of thought...

    but, as yet, have not reached any conclusions...

    i'm soliciting arguments opposed and in favor.

    let's hear em.
    I'm in favor as long as they follow up with a court order. It can all be secretive as well, but they must maintain checks and balances in the system to ensure the system is not abused.

  3. #3
    Good Enough Phatie's Avatar
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    09.01.07 @ 03:35 PM
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    Patrick Henry Said it best..

    Opposed

    If the government is going to do it without court order, then let everyone do it. ..tappin phone lines, and that ain't allowed!

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

    -Patrick Henry
    Last edited by Phatie; 01.18.06 at 03:21 PM. Reason: because

  4. #4
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    It was clearly illegal and unconstitutional. Period.

  5. #5
    Good Enough Phatie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradS
    It was clearly illegal and unconstitutional. Period.
    I will fade a little on my opinion and say that if they were truly stopping terrorism and concetrating on suspects, like those who downed the planes, I'm all for it. If it was just a free-for-all, and we all get unconstitutionally searched for no reason, or at random, it's against the founder's of the USA's intentions when creating the Constitution of the United States, and the Bill of Rights.

  6. #6
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phatie
    I will fade a little on my opinion and say that if they were truly stopping terrorism and concetrating on suspects, like those who downed the planes, I'm all for it. If it was just a free-for-all, and we all get unconstitutionally searched for no reason, or at random, it's against the founder's of the USA's intentions when creating the Constitution of the United States, and the Bill of Rights.
    It doesn’t matter what the purpose…he broke the law and should be impeached.

    Bush secretly ordered the NSA to do things that are prohibited by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (USC Title 50 Chapter 36 Subchapter 1) and it is a serious felony. He has confessed no less. He can claim “emergency” all he wants, but Congress put in provisions to cover these “emergency” situations by providing a 72 hour window to legally listen in and monitor emails until a judge can be found and a warrant issued.

    There is no excuse whatsoever. Period.

    Not to mention the fact that because he conspired with others, including Rice, he is also subject to fine and imprisonment under USC Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 19 § 371, and because he purposely hide it from everyone, including Congress, law agencies and the courts, he has obstructed justice under USC Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 73 §.1512 paragraph (b).

  7. #7
    Good Enough ZORBA5150's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 04:30 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradS
    It doesn’t matter what the purpose…he broke the law and should be impeached.

    Bush secretly ordered the NSA to do things that are prohibited by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (USC Title 50 Chapter 36 Subchapter 1) and it is a serious felony. He has confessed no less. He can claim “emergency” all he wants, but Congress put in provisions to cover these “emergency” situations by providing a 72 hour window to legally listen in and monitor emails until a judge can be found and a warrant issued.

    There is no excuse whatsoever. Period.

    Not to mention the fact that because he conspired with others, including Rice, he is also subject to fine and imprisonment under USC Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 19 § 371, and because he purposely hide it from everyone, including Congress, law agencies and the courts, he has obstructed justice under USC Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 73 §.1512 paragraph (b).
    You obviously did not live around New York City on 9/11. New York is one of the most, if not the most liberal city in the country, but most residents are for whatever it takes to protect them. Along with myself. They are not spying on me and you- well maybe you. They are spying on people who need to be checked up on. Period. Think of the consquences of not spying on suspect terrorrists or having ties to terrorist- that is what's more important. And if he broke the law, then why isn't he arrested/charged with anything yet?

  8. #8
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZORBA5150
    They are spying on people who need to be checked up on. Period.
    Really? How does spying on members of the United Nations to see how they are going to vote on the war with Irag considered worthy of breaking the law?

    And if he broke the law, then why isn't he arrested/charged with anything yet?
    Yet. Hopefully he will. It's being investigated...don't you watch the news? Just in case you haven't noticed, government officials have a real easy way of avoiding the law...hopefully, Bush won't be one of them.

    All the details haven't come out yet, but it looks as though suspected terrorists were just some of the people spied on.

  9. #9
    Atomic Punk
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    FISA's got holes in it, Bush has driven through them.

    First off, for all that has been said and written so far there are actually few true facts. The sources for this story were not directly involved or didn't work for that section of the NSA, so nobody actually knows who was spied on or how many or what the circumstances are.

    Here's what you need to know. The NSA has a program called Echelon, one of the cool things Clinton did (trust me), that monitors all out-doing and incoming oversea's phonecalls. It points outward, not inward, calls are recorded by a monster NSA computer and anylized for content (key words), suspicious calls are flagged for closer review by an NSA screener, who then after listening to the call either erases it or flags it and sends it up the chain for review by more serious types who then either file it, erase it or turn it over to the FBI and CIA. Not every call is captured, calls to certain countries or cities overseas get priority, calls made from flagged domestic phone#s are recorded as well. Echelon has been in operation since 1996.

    Spying within the United States falls within the preview of the FBI, the NSA can but won't, unless requested to do so by the FBI. One of the weak points of the domestic spying story is the lack of FBI involvement, if it's actually happening on the scale the NYT would like you to believe it is then there have to be hundreds of FBI agents involved as well.

    My problem is that Al Qaeda didn't talk on the phone too much prior to 9/11, I can't imagine they're yakking it up now.
    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


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  10. #10
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300
    FISA's got holes in it, Bush has driven through them.
    No, he didn't. He broke the law.

    First off, for all that has been said and written so far there are actually few true facts. The sources for this story were not directly involved or didn't work for that section of the NSA, so nobody actually knows who was spied on or how many or what the circumstances are.
    Post up some facts, other than your own words, to back that up. Otherwise, it's just your misinformed opinion.

    Here's what you need to know. The NSA has a program called Echelon, one of the cool things Clinton did (trust me), that monitors all out-doing and incoming oversea's phonecalls. It points outward, not inward, calls are recorded by a monster NSA computer and anylized for content (key words), suspicious calls are flagged for closer review by an NSA screener, who then after listening to the call either erases it or flags it and sends it up the chain for review by more serious types who then either file it, erase it or turn it over to the FBI and CIA. Not every call is captured, calls to certain countries or cities overseas get priority, calls made from flagged domestic phone#s are recorded as well. Echelon has been in operation since 1996.

    Spying within the United States falls within the preview of the FBI, the NSA can but won't, unless requested to do so by the FBI. One of the weak points of the domestic spying story is the lack of FBI involvement, if it's actually happening on the scale the NYT would like you to believe it is then there have to be hundreds of FBI agents involved as well.
    I know what Echelon is. You're real good at trying to show that you have a definition for how things are supposed to work, but from what I can see, you're short on facts.

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk
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    I'm saying that YOU'RE short on facts.

    We don't know the true extent of the spying.

    Who was spied upon and why.

    What protocols were broken - exactly.

    Everybody's getting their panties in a twist when we don't know the truth. Plus, I would point out that last year everyone was running around waving the 9/11 Commission report and complaining that it was criminal that we weren't spying enough.

    All I've done is told you how the NSA does things and where the keys to any further developements should come (the FBI or DoJ). I know as much as anybody without a security clearence can know about the NSA. James Bamford has written two great and uncomfortable accurrate books about the NSA, look them up.
    "Nothing is ever what it seems but everything is exactly what it is." - B. Banzai


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  12. #12
    Good Enough Phatie's Avatar
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    09.01.07 @ 03:35 PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradS
    No, he didn't. He broke the law.

    Post up some facts, other than your own words, to back that up. Otherwise, it's just your misinformed opinion.

    I know what Echelon is. You're real good at trying to show that you have a definition for how things are supposed to work, but from what I can see, you're short on facts.
    Brad,

    I commend your public outcry for justice. Without open and honest free speech laws, you would be imprisoned for such an outcry. Viva La Resitance' ! For the wise who may be listening; it's as though Brad has found an instrument, covered for centuries underneath a waterfall, and is discovering its beauty.

    Its times like these when our society grows its neural capacity and makes decisions based on the rights of many based on the threat of the few.

    I tend to believe that the U.S. Gvmt has had time-travel capability some years ahead of where we are now. I don't mean that people from 1945 are among us, but humanity 1000 years from now may have capability to change the course of history by traveling back, for the good (?) of the future.

    I suppose these are the Elders, or shudder to think The Federation (!) Although possible, could be at the helm. As Sci-Fi as it may sound, and less probable; each and every event that we encounter as we approach Globalism could be orchestrated by a chosen few who have decided to travel back a few grooves in the Celestial record to shape the outcome.

    Outcome-based, time-inverted Government is not something you can control. I do appreciate your voice, and this type of dissent, regardless of mode is duly rewarded by the collective vibration of humanity's soul - that is God.

    Ph@tsx

    Don Quixote. "The fortunes of war more than any other are liable to frequent fluctuations. Moreover I think, and it is the truth, that the same sage Frestón who carried off my study and books, has turned these giants into mills in order to rob me of the glory of vanquishing them, such is the enmity he bears me. But in the end his wicked arts will avail but little against my good sword."
    Last edited by Phatie; 01.18.06 at 08:03 PM.

  13. #13
    The Joker BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axxman300
    I'm saying that YOU'RE short on facts.
    I have what anybody who is willing to research knows...the facts currently available. NSA and DOJ officials have corroborated this so far...

    Quote books all you want...I'm sure they're a great read, but what is supposed to happen, and what does happen are two different things.

    We will see…

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 11:09 AM
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    Here's what I love about this kind of an uproar, people think GW is the one listening to your phone calls. They also think that all the agencies are evil far right organizations. Sorry buds, but these are bipartisan groups. Indeed, they get their orders from GW, but this is nothing different than what has been going on for decades under EVERY president. To think otherwise is a bit naive.

    Another thing, he did not hide it from Congress. He actually had a meeting with top leaders in Congress (both D and R), but they were sworn to secrecy(for obvious reasons). Thanks to the good ol' NYT, they have exposed a key defense against terrorism, and it was all for political purposes.

    Look, I'm all for freedom of the press and freedom of speech and right to privacy, but there has to be a balance. I have no problem with violating the rights of someone talking to a person on the watch list outside the country. As long as they aren't doing anything terrible, what's the big fuss?

    People act as though we're turning into Big Brother. IT CANNOT HAPPEN AND NEVER WILL! Why? The government is a constantly changing body, with big evil presidents like GW only getting 8 years in office at the most. Also, those in government agencies are in unions, which means big evil people bent on world domination can't just come in and flush out everyone. They also can't throw everyone in jail that disagrees (you think we have overcrowding now, try imprisoning the east and west coast). They also can't make people "disappear" like they used to.

    That is where all the fear of this stuff stems from, people think we're heading towards 1984 territory, when it simply isn't possible under our form of government.

    Besides, what are you afraid of them hearing, you're phone sex calls or something? The only people that should be concerned are the ones talking about breaking the law.
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk bsbll4's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 11:09 AM
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    By the way, do we really have to hear about impeachment every time somebody doesn't like what GW did? Honestly, how many times has SOMEONE on the left called for an impeachment? (probably a dozen or so, and that's being generous)

    I knew it was a bad precedent at the time to set with Bill Clinton, but I still agreed with the reasons.

    But seriously folks...can we all just lighten up a bit on this stuff? Anyone think DLR is coming back?
    CNN may think my opinion matters, but you shouldn't.

 

 

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