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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    Default Views on Marriage

    We had an interesting discussion in class yesterday about marriage. It's a property law class. Everything sprang from a problem where a man promised his wife all of his possessions when he died, if she would just take care of him in his last days. She did, and he left everything to a daughter from a previous marriage. The wife took his estate to court, and the court ruled that what he did was fine. She had a pre-existing duty to care for him. That's what brought all of this up.

    The discussion amazed me. So many people said that they don't see any real meaning in marriage vows--that they're just things you say when you're in a ceremony. Our professor is a very bright woman, and just got married a month or so ago. She said couldn't remember her vows, and didn't put any particular weight on them. The women in class seemed to agree strongly with her.

    On the subject of divorce, once again the women seemed to think that divorce should be as easy as possible. The general line was that people should be able to get out of marriages quickly and with little hassle.

    For the most part, these are very bright, successful people in their 20s. Their attitudes just depressed me. How can people be so cavalier about something so serious? About a commitment that is supposed to be binding for life?

    Among my friends, I see a bit of that, too. People who married for all the wrong reasons. Infidelity, and selfishness. I look at these forums, and I'm dismayed at how some people disrespect their partners. It's as though they don't value their relationships at all.

    Am I just totally in the minority on this? Is this what our culture has devolved to?

  2. #2
    PM Goo with your concerns OLO's Avatar
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    I agree with you Mike. I think far to many people go into marriage with the attitude that it is disposable, almost like going steady. To many people get married for the wrong reasons IMHO, I have seen so many guys get married because they felt they owed it to there girlfriends.I know a lot of women that have gotten amrried because there girlfreinds were all getting married and the bio clock was ticking. IMO these are all the wrong reasons to get hitched. Divorce has become as easy as online banking, especially for young people that dont have a lot of assets.

    It really is pretty sad.
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  3. #3
    Outta Space Cowboy Scotty's Avatar
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    I hope you're not in the minority, because I couldn't agree with you more.

    Unfortunately, I do believe society as a whole has come to this. I believe if you look at the history of our society over the course of the past 30 or 40 years or so, we've become more and more less focused or concerned with taking responsibility for our own actions. Therefore, the value of marriage vows has wilted and unborn children are no longer treated as human beings, just to name a couple examples.

    Sad time.

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk
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    My two cents....

    My brother has been married for over 17 years. It's has been hard at times for him. His wife had to work in a different state for almost a year. They've gone to counceling twice. They feel it's important to work on the marriage then to quit.

    My best friend has been married for 20 years, they've had their ups and downs and have also gone to counceling. They also feel that marriage is something that is serious and deserves the extra attention to make it work.

    When I was a teenager (re:a kid), my heroes were the guys who bagged a ton of babes. Now that I'm an adult (sort of) the guys I respect are the ones who've been married to the same woman for a good chunk of time and have been willing to "Man-up" and do the dirty work to keep the union intact.

    I'm single, never been married. This is partially because I take marriage very seriously, once I make a commitment then that's it. Part of my growing up was figuring out that just because I wanted to screw her didn't mean that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. So I toned down that aspect of my life. That said, I feel divorce should be something equal to abdominal surgery, it should be considered as seriously. People shouldn't assume that divorce is "No big deal". I'm not saying that laws should be passed or anything of a sort. It's a socialogical thing that needs to be looked at and fixed.
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  5. #5
    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is rather about what our society has evolved to, rather than devolved.

    Many attribute the act of marriage as a penultimate measurement of love and commitment. But why is it so important for so many folk to believe in love everlasting? Is it so hard to believe that all things must and do change, whether we want them to or not? Marriage and children give frail, feeble mortals a sense of immortality. How excruciating it is, that so much of this existence to date is inextricably meshed with sex and death.

    Marriage ceremonies, and vows, are indeed, when looked at objectively, words and deeds proclaiming the nature of two people's mutual feelings. But the feelings themselves, are far more nuanced and layered than a simple blood test, a ring, and a promise to love and honor until death do ye part. I certainly can believe that there are types of love that last throughout this world and beyond. But whether those feelings are appropriately measured by a long standing and mostly patriarchal construct? I'm entirely unsure about that. I've grown to mistrust anything created by man several thousand years ago for pragmatic or utilitarian purposes, including social arrangements based on resource allocation as well as organized religion.

    Love, real love, is likely something beyond what we've created in this world, past or present, to label it or contain it. At least, that's what I believe. But marriage is a circumstance, created by us, whereas feelings are often involuntary. And evolutionarily speaking, human beings aren't hard-wired to be monogamous, either biologically or socially. What we ARE hard-wired for, despite our best efforts to deny it, is change and adaptation. Long term relationships bound by contract were, up until a few hundred years ago, mostly created for barter. Then we made a solid effort to deify it into a holy union marking a man and woman's undying love...but failed to incorporate an amicable solution should the 'undying' love suffer a case of the blues, which, for better or worse, throughout history, has been more often than not. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Sure, we all know a Ma and Pa Ferguson, perhaps even some of our parents, who were childhood sweethearts and have been married for sixty years and still have that twinkle in their eyes at 80 years golden. But those few lucky folk are few and far between.

    The way women term their marriages in many other parts of the world is entirely different. Millions, perhaps billions, of Chinese, African, Indonesian, and South American marriages are exclusively subservient arrangements. Millions of women in the world are married only because the contract provided food on their plates each night.

    Obviously, the American idealism of marriage has taken a downfall in popularity and credibility. As with much the rest of American society, including politics, ethics, culture, and all the rest, post-Eisenhower era generations have become increasingly disillusioned with the way things have shaped up. Bottom line: it's a scarier world out there for the West. (the third world has, for the most part, remained the same, probably a good source of their discontent, but that's another issue).

    There's more of us, and far too many are aimless and drifting and searching, they know not what for. Thusly will traditional watermarks like marriage be pushed aside...the main problem being, they're not being replaced with something else. The reason there's so much divorce is, people's impressions of marriage are too frequently at odds with what the reality turned out to be. Ironically, this isn't any different than what most of our parents and grandparents also realized...it's just that they stuck to their guns, despite their possible misery and wasted time, because that's what they were taught to do. Let's not forget...it hasn't even been a hundred years since women won the right to vote. Equal partnerships in marriage, with equal access to decision making and economic wherewithal, given the scope of human history, is virtually a brand new concept for human beings. In truth, our current definiton of modern marriage is actually only ONE LIFETIME old, give or take a decade....and, it's mostly limited to the western nations.

    Before yon villagers throw me to the wolves, let me say I have the utmost respect for long term loving relationships, whether they're dog-tagged by marriage or not. If the compact of marriage works for you and yours, super. Undoubtedly there are many folks whose love became stronger via the act of marriage. But as we all know, there are far more who experience quite the opposite. There's obviously some unexamined reasons why the divorce rate is 50% in this country (70% in the blue states ).

    The way this planet thinks about relationships is sorely dated...another indicator of our hunger for a new kind of spirituality. The old stuff isn't working. One only needs to look out the window or turn on any media to notice this.

    We've got a long way to go, baby.
    Last edited by Van Squalen; 11.11.05 at 06:52 PM.

  6. #6
    Eruption Darby's Avatar
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    Every married man I know is miserable. They try to act like it's not all that bad, but you can tell they hate it. It seems that every one of their wives are mentally screwed up, extremely insecure, and controlling. For example, I will call one of these married men to go out for a beer. They will inform me that they are "not allowed". That is some fucked up shit. Another excuse I have been given is "sexual cutoff". Now that is some REALLY fucked up shit. The way the divorce laws are setup, I don't see any reason for a man to ever get married.

  7. #7
    Niners Fan! SactoFan's Avatar
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    Paul Newman said it best...he said we treat marriage like a disposable clock radio...Instrad of fixing what we have, we throw it away...

    I agree with you, Mike. Marriage is hard ass work some days. Or, to paraphrase Chris Rock, you haven't been really in love until you've contemplated murder...

    I don't think people have changed all that much though...It's always been hard to be married and people have always looked for, and justified, ways to 'ease' their committment...
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  8. #8
    Eruption Executionor's Avatar
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    My 2 cents or opinion or personal views:

    My wife and I dated for over 10 years before we got married and have been married for 11 going on 12 more years. We both take it pretty serious, although there have been "times" where We both wanted to strangle each other literally. I was thinking about this just the other day. These days Steph and I are running our asses off with this and that and careers and kids and such. We have 3 little ones. 1, 6 and 9. Those that have kids know what that is all about. run run run run.

    I think maybe more marriages would make it if one spouse at a time was able to just somehow step away from the family for a week or so a year. I know I have been absolutely exhausted and said and done things that I will regret the rest of my days. The negative things we say and do when we are exhausted are what damage relationships.

    It is our fault I know, but tonight was the first time since our little girl was born on July 21st of '04 that we actually went out to eat away from the kids and just enjoyed the quiet. My gosh we had almost forgotten what that was like.

    I know one thing that is really farqed about marriage is that the women pretty well get what they want when they get the divorce. I think they know this and that allows them to be bitchy at times. Hell, we aren't going to want to pay that child support so we will listen to the bitching. I don't know what the right answer is to this, but I know a lot of guys that have gotten the shaft there. Some women, definitely not all women only take the kids to get the child support. THAT PISSES ME OFF. Really, what gives a judge the right to decide the mother has any more right to keep the kids than the daddy? Grrr, this happened to my bro and some friends is why it is so irritating to me.

    Dang I hope I don't fall off this high horse I am on. Anyways my blabber about what I think.
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  9. #9
    Hang 'Em High perticelli's Avatar
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    fine topic.
    I been with my wife for 23 years and im 40. It aint always easy and it aint always hard, but it does take alot more than just words or a commitment..
    Today, people have evolved into more of a "me" mindset ..and its no small wonder. Technology serves to simplify our lives, but it also isolates us> we can get virtually ANYTHING on this box AND be virtually whoever you want to be..like taking on roles of characters in film aand Tv that they arwe conctantly bombarded by.
    But we're also willing to accept it and let it in, more so than other generations.
    The stimuli is different, the society is more isolated from each other and life is about finding even more convenience.

    In that scenario, why or how would marriage , as defined in other times, be immune?
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  10. #10
    Baluchitherium KT's Avatar
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    Sisca???

    You're going to implode if you don't say something, huh?
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  11. #11
    Baluchitherium sisca's Avatar
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    ive been married once, and i dont think that ill ever do it again. after my ex wife ripped out my heart, cut it into tiny pieces, set it on fire, took a healthy shit on it and then stuffed it down my throat- then leaving me with a mountainous debt....nah, no thanks.
    """"\//-/""""


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    History tells us that oppressive nations build walls to keep people IN, not out.
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    then ill build it from the mexican side. -my reply.

  12. #12
    Atomic Punk fast98dodge's Avatar
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    I've never been married, but I have been engaged. In retrospect, I'm glad the relationship went south before we got married. I am a firm believer in the "until death do us part" stuff. I admire all of you who have been together and married for any length of time. It's hard work and my hat's off to you guys and girls...
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  13. #13
    Baluchitherium KT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisca
    ive been married once, and i dont think that ill ever do it again. after my ex wife ripped out my heart, cut it into tiny pieces, set it on fire, took a healthy shit on it and then stuffed it down my throat- then leaving me with a mountainous debt....nah, no thanks.

    Right on cue...I knew you'd have a mouthful on this one!

    ...and I'm glad you're not bitter---HA!

    KT (mumbles under her breath, "that crazy crazy bitch...")
    Last edited by KT; 11.11.05 at 08:05 PM.
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    Baluchitherium sisca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktgiles
    Sisca???

    You're going to implode if you don't say something, huh?
    judging from the time of our posts, kt, you knew EXACTLY what i was thinking. know what they say about great minds, huh?
    """"\//-/""""


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    " SHUT UP, FAGGOT." - Vinnie Velvet, showing off that sharp wit of his.

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    “ Originally posted by FORD
    History tells us that oppressive nations build walls to keep people IN, not out.
    (See "Berlin Wall" and "Likud Israel" for examples) ” FORD- when i told him i'd build a wall between the US and Mexico.

    then ill build it from the mexican side. -my reply.

  15. #15
    Hang 'Em High perticelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisca
    ive been married once, and i dont think that ill ever do it again. after my ex wife ripped out my heart, cut it into tiny pieces, set it on fire, took a healthy shit on it and then stuffed it down my throat- then leaving me with a mountainous debt....nah, no thanks.


    idn't it funny, or is it ironic,...that women have this uncanny skill to destroy that which they temselves enrich?

    Your heart can NEVER be killed,..bruised and beat all to hell, sure, but if you remember one key ingredient to jettison, you will love again..

    of course, that key ingredient is........
    Eddie is the greatest, period

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