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  1. #1
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    Remember the climate in the height of the cold war and in to the 80's? Brace yourselves, I think that's coming back.
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  2. #2
    On Fire Van Heineken's Avatar
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    The hypocrisy of US foreign policy never fails to amaze me. The only nation to use atomic weapons on another feels compelled to rattle their saber once again to remind us all of the potential folly of opposing the loose cannon superpower.

    If the US State Department had a slogan, it would be "The USA: turning the world into Pandora's Box one bomb at a time."
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    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Heineken
    The hypocrisy of US foreign policy never fails to amaze me. The only nation to use atomic weapons on another feels compelled to rattle their saber once again to remind us all of the potential folly of opposing the loose cannon superpower.

    If the US State Department had a slogan, it would be "The USA: turning the world into Pandora's Box one bomb at a time."

  4. #4
    Good Enough ebmm_axis's Avatar
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    In times of peace it's easy to speak of nuclear disarmament. In times of terrorist nuclear threats, it's a different story.

    Hypocrisy or not, they are pretty useful deterrents aren't they?
    Last edited by ebmm_axis; 09.15.05 at 10:31 AM.
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    On Fire Van Heineken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebmm_axis
    In times of peace it's easy to speak of nuclear disarmament. In times of terrorist nuclear threats, it's a different story.
    I'm not sure how it's easy to speak of disarmament at any time when the US will never consider a reduction serious enough to lessen the power that the threat of total nuclear obliteration gives them in foisting their agenda on the rest of the world. You can't honestly believe that the US is the white dove in all of this? Do yourself a favor and read Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival. The agenda has never changed and the threat of terrorism has simply given US power brokers carte blanche to carry forth on their imperialist policies under the guise of protecting the homeland. Like anyone's going to seriously pose a threat to the USA's nuclear might. That's paranoia and hogwash posing as policy.

    The good ol US of A stopped being the land of the free when you guys agreed to the Patriot Act. Do what's right and take back your country from the moneyed elite that's feeding your kids to their war machine. Of course, that's just one man's opinion.
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  6. #6
    Good Enough ebmm_axis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Heineken
    I'm not sure how it's easy to speak of disarmament at any time when the US will never consider a reduction serious enough to lessen the power that the threat of total nuclear obliteration gives them in foisting their agenda on the rest of the world.
    God, I hope we don't. Can you imagine if we did? Russia, China, N. Korea... hmmm. You don't HONESTLY believe those nations would NOT take advantage? LOL!

    You can't honestly believe that the US is the white dove in all of this?
    Nobody's a white dove. But it is what it is and I'm glad it's the USA that is the big dawg.


    Do yourself a favor and read Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival. The agenda has never changed and the threat of terrorism has simply given US power brokers carte blanche to carry forth on their imperialist policies under the guise of protecting the homeland. Like anyone's going to seriously pose a threat to the USA's nuclear might. That's paranoia and hogwash posing as policy.
    It's that nuke threat that keeps the world in check. It's unfortunate and it is sad, but, still, it is what it is. And, AGAIN, I'm glad it's us and not Jamaica.


    The good ol US of A stopped being the land of the free when you guys agreed to the Patriot Act. Do what's right and take back your country from the moneyed elite that's feeding your kids to their war machine.
    Um... Um... OK. I guess. NICE transition there, btw. Nuclear deterrents to the Patriot Act and my kids are being fed to the US War Machine... You need some Rum and CocaCola!
    Last edited by ebmm_axis; 09.15.05 at 11:42 AM.
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  7. #7
    On Fire Van Heineken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebmm_axis
    It's that nuke threat that keeps the world in check. It's unfortunate and it is sad, but, still, it is what it is. And, AGAIN, I'm glad it's us and not Jamaica.
    Well, as a Canuck expat living in this banana republic. I couldn't agree more with that. The reason I brought up Pandora's Box is because the Manhattan Project has put us in this untenable situation. The world is a safer place without WMDs altogether, not because the US has the biggest arsenal and has shown a willingness to use it. Obviously that's not going to change in anything other than a utopian scenario though, so we're stuck with what we have.

    In all honesty, I'm probably going to avoid this thread long-term, because no one's opinions are going to change on this and I've seen friendships end on here over similar topics. But just to play devil's advocate for a second, what makes you think the world would be any worse off if China or Russia specifically hold the edge in the arms race? Neither of those nations has dropped nukes like yours has, so why are they branded as the loose cannons? From my perspective, America's leaders and their foreign policy appears to be every bit as self serving as these other nations. You've just bought into the propaganda lie that those countries exist to do you harm. This is my major complaint about American style patriotism. There seems to be a lot of Americans acknowleding that you are the global "bully in the sandbox," but that's ok as long as you're the bully and not someone else. The irony is that in escaping from the British imperialists, your country has now become them. Or is it just a coincidence that the Brits were the only ones that supported your invasion of Iraq?
    Last edited by Van Heineken; 09.15.05 at 12:01 PM.
    “Bring on a brand new Renaissance...cos I think I'm ready."

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  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    Heineken, inevitably you're gonna find folks in the mutant wasteland of Non who defend the so-called working mechanisms of nuclear deterrence. Folks expressing opinions like yourself are considered idealist wackos who don't function in the real world of socio-political topography. Most of the fellows hereabouts work on premises that assume if something hasn't happened yet, it's working. They fail to realize several truths about the reality of nuclear weaponry. In this day and age, mutual assured destruction dogma means little to terrorist cells who routinely sacrifice members and who have no set country of origin to retaliate against. They fail to visualize the utter destruction and poisoning of the earth said weaponry will result in.

    "It is what it is." "I don't deal in 'what-ifs.'" "Accept that which you cannot change." These are the notions of a people who have given up on imagining a better existence, who have forsaken the future for a patchwork present. It's truly disheartening to find again and again proof positive that as a race we assuredly will require a giant kick in the ass before beginning a course of proaction rather than reaction.

    Also, most Americans, with the exception of some unfortunates in proximity to Three Mile Island (never 'proven', what a coinkydink), have yet to watch their children die of thyroid cancer brought on by fallout ingestion. If it's not in their face, it's not real. Don't pop my bubble, thanks very much.

  9. #9
    Good Enough ebmm_axis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Heineken
    Well, as a Canuck expat living in this banana republic. I couldn't agree more with that.
    :chuckling:

    The reason I brought up Pandora's Box is because the Manhattan Project has put us in this untenable situation.
    Well, it wasn't just OUR Manhatten Project, was it? Wasn't it Russia's and Germany's Manhatten Projects as well? It was a race, man...

    The world is a safer place without WMDs altogether, not because the US has the biggest arsenal and has shown a willingness to use it. Obviously that's not going to change in anything other than a utopian scenario though, so we're stuck with what we have.
    Yup. That's the bottom line...

    In all honesty, I'm probably going to avoid this thread long-term, because no one's opinions are going to change on this and I've seen friendships end on here over similar topics.
    Well, you and I aren't friends anyway, so you can't lose me. Or are we friends? lol...

    But just to play devil's advocate for a second, what makes you think the world would be any worse off if China or Russia specifically hold the edge in the arms race? Neither of those nations has dropped nukes like yours has, so why are they branded as the loose cannons?
    Good point. My point of view is going to be an American one, though. One you'd dispute to the end. BUt, oh well. Just because we're nicer than they are.

    From my perspective, America's leaders and their foreign policy appears to be every bit as self serving as these other nations. You've just bought into the propaganda lie that those countries exist to do you harm.
    You can call it propoganda. But, in all honesty, the US and RUssia weren't on very good terms for quite a long time. So, yeah, they probably wanted to do us harm just as much as we wanted to do them harm.

    I believe that China is gonna stick one to us. Maybe propoganda, maybe not. I still believe it, though.

    This is my major complaint about American style patriotism. There seems to be a lot of Americans acknowleding that you are the global "bully in the sandbox," but that's ok as long as you're the bully and not someone else.
    Geez, don't all bullies believe that? That's not America. That's human nature.

    And again, it's because we're nicer than everybody else.

    I'm glad the bully didn't end up being Germany and I'm glad our science project got off the ground before their's did. Just because I'm an arrogant American.

    The irony is that in escaping from the British imperialists, your country has now become them. Or is it just a coincidence that the Brits were the only ones that supported your invasion of Iraq?
    Naw, it's not ironic. THey're our pals. At least Tony is. I love Brits. My casa is their casa.

    And again, you could very well be one of the happiest Jamaican dwelling Canucks on the face of the earth within the next decade or so... Maybe our imperialism has run dry. There's a lot of shit working against us now.

    But, we still got nukes!
    Last edited by ebmm_axis; 09.15.05 at 12:13 PM.
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  10. #10
    On Fire Van Heineken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Squalen
    Heineken, inevitably you're gonna find folks in the mutant wasteland of Non who defend the so-called working mechanisms of nuclear deterrence. Folks expressing opinions like yourself are considered idealist wackos who don't function in the real world of socio-political topography. Most of the fellows hereabouts work on premises that assume if something hasn't happened yet, it's working. They fail to realize several truths about the reality of nuclear weaponry. In this day and age, mutual assured destruction dogma means little to terrorist cells who routinely sacrifice members and who have no set country of origin to retaliate against. They fail to visualize the utter destruction and poisoning of the earth said weaponry will result in.

    "It is what it is." "I don't deal in 'what-ifs.'" "Accept that which you cannot change." These are the notions of a people who have given up on imagining a better existence, who have forsaken the future for a patchwork present. It's truly disheartening to find again and again proof positive that as a race we assuredly will require a giant kick in the ass before beginning a course of proaction rather than reaction.

    Also, most Americans, with the exception of some unfortunates in proximity to Three Mile Island (never 'proven', what a coinkydink), have yet to watch their children die of thyroid cancer brought on by fallout ingestion. If it's not in their face, it's not real. Don't pop my bubble, thanks very much.
    Well said, but this coming from a guy living in SoCal? I think you guys will break off and sink into the ocean long before you have to worry about a mutual assured destruction scenario.
    “Bring on a brand new Renaissance...cos I think I'm ready."

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  11. #11
    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Heineken
    Well said, but this coming from a guy living in SoCal? I think you guys will break off and sink into the ocean long before you have to worry about a mutual assured destruction scenario.
    Touche. Ehh, it's just death. Death's no biggie. What IS the biggie is the world we leave for our children after we head off to those happy hunting grounds in the sky.

    What's the lamest facet about 20th and 21st century legacies is that the people who messed it up aren't gonna be the ones to clean it up. Nope, that honor will go to our progeny. You're welcome, kiddies.

  12. #12
    Atomic Punk Van Squalen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebmm_axis
    I like that quote, Van Squalin. I find myself guilty of that thought pattern more and more lately.

    It ain't gonna change. You know why? Because it is HUMAN NATURE to battle for power and dominance. Isn't that one constant that history has shown us?

    Absolutely. It's human nature to destroy ourselves. It's evolutionary. It's sunk in our very gene pool. Biological impulse has combined with cultural fear in our modern day to create a world on thin ice.

    BUT...it's also within us to rise above our base nature. We do have the ability to try and achieve a level beyond our inbred fears of the unknown, beyond our tendencies to covet that which keeps us in our static, preferred and accustomed lifestyles. Heck, if we don't strive for EXACTLY that, what the heck is the point of being on this planet in the first place?

    The question being, will we before it's too late?

    Jury's still out, but rumor has it they're leaning toward the prosecution.

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    Unchained JCM 800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebmm_axis
    In times of peace it's easy to speak of nuclear disarmament. In times of terrorist nuclear threats, it's a different story.

    Hypocrisy or not, they are pretty useful deterrents aren't they?
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on the last part. Terrorists are willing to die for their cause, so how is threatening to kill them a deterrent? I never get that mentality..."Stop blowing yourselves up or we're going to kill you!!!"

    Nukes, for the time being, are a deterrent to governments that might otherwise get froggy with us and our allies. But there is no deterent for terrorists like those that bombed the WTC, the Pentagon, the USS Cole...
    "You will respect my authoritah!" Ptl.Cartman

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    Good Enough ebmm_axis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCM 800
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on the last part.
    LOL. You don't have to be sorry. I put a at the end. A "smart-ass" remark... Geez. I need to stop using the and start using :sarcasm: from here on out.
    You can lead a horse to water, but that still won't make him a duck!

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    Unchained JCM 800's Avatar
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    I gotcha...I'm never to sure, knowing some of the political views in this place.

    It could have been a YEEEHAA!!Fire'm up!!!
    Last edited by JCM 800; 09.15.05 at 12:33 PM.
    "You will respect my authoritah!" Ptl.Cartman

 

 

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