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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk
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    12.09.17 @ 10:36 PM
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    don't know about y'all...but i'm more worried about n. korea than iraq...

    N. Korea Threatens to Abandon Armistice
    2 hours, 41 minutes ago

    By SANG-HUN CHOE, Associated Press Writer

    SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea (news - web sites) threatened on Tuesday to abandon the 1953 armistice that ended the Korean War, accusing the United States of plotting an attack on the communist state.


    AP Photo




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    A spokesman of the North's Korean People's Army claimed that the United States was building up reinforcements around the Korean Peninsula in preparations to attack the North, said the North's official news agency KCNA.


    "The situation is, therefore, getting more serious as the days go by as it is putting its plan for pre-emptive attacks on the (North) into practice," KCNA quoted the unidentified spokesman as saying.


    The 1950-53 Korean War ended with an armistice, not a peace treaty, leaving the countries technically in a state of war. A North Korean withdrawal from the armistice would remove the main mechanism that is helping to keep an uneasy peace on the peninsula, where the border between the two Koreas is the world's most heavily armed.


    The announcement is the latest move in a crisis over the North's recent decision to restart its nuclear programs in violations of international treaties.


    Washington and its allies are pressuring North Korea to abandon its suspected nuclear weapon programs. The North has insisted on direct talks first with the United States, from which it wants a nonaggression treaty.


    The North threat followed by a day a declaration by the communist state that it would triumph in the nuclear standoff.


    That bluster came as South Korea (news - web sites)'s outgoing president, Kim Dae-jung (news - web sites), warned that Pyongyang's production of atomic weapons could force his country and Japan to build nuclear bombs as well. as South Korea warned that Pyongyang's production of atomic weapons could force the South and Japan to build nuclear bombs as well.


    Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld has said that North Korea has one or two nuclear weapons and could extract enough plutonium within months to make six to eight more. North Korea had never admitted or denied having nuclear weapons, but has said it has the right to develop nuclear weapons.


    The spokesman said the "grave situation created by the undisguised war acts committed by the U.S. in breach of the armistice agreement compels the Korean People's Army side, its warring party, to immediately take all steps to cope with it."


    "If the U.S. side continues violating and misusing the armistice agreement as it pleases, there will be no need for the (North) to remain bound to the armistice agreement uncomfortably," the spokesman said.


    The North Korean statement, which was carried by KCNA on Tuesday was issued Monday by the spokesman of the North Korean military's mission to Panmunjom, a truce village where the U.S.-led U.N. Command and the North Korean military meet to oversee the armistice.


    The North accused the United States of violating the armistice agreement by sending reinforcements around the Korean Peninsula and planning to impose a naval blockade against the impoverished, communist state.


    North Korea had previously threatened to pull out of the armistice in an attempt to increase tension with the United States and force Washington to start negotiations with the Stalinist regime in Pyongyang.

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  2. #2
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    goodbye, sunshine... i could point out a bunch of the mistakes that got us here, but you've all heard that, right?

    i'm with you, jmj. this fucked-up corner of the sandbox is very worrisome. and no matter how much of this is posturing, bluffs, and hot air (probably about 98%), we shouldn't even be in the position to take this kind of shit off of north korea.

    plus, is there a real hatred between north korea and south korea? i don't know the area that well, but it seems like there's a emnity that wasn't present in east and west germany. is this all the result of civil war (our korean war?) - think i answered my own question i get more of a miami vs. havanna vibe off of the koreas.

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    Our Korean War?

    The North Koreans started it.

    The Korean War was the first war fought by the UNITED NATIONS . The war was fought on the behalf of the South Korean people. The U.S presence there is as much to keep the South from going North as visa versa. The North Koreans were defeated and the only reason things are the way they are today is because the Red Chinese sent 1 million troops across the Yalu River. Douglas McCarther was relieved from command after he reccomended stopping the Chinese with the A-Bomb (yet another example of how the US is the good guy and the Commies blow).

    The North Koreans invaded the south at the urging of one Joe Stalin.

    You realy need to learn more about simple world history.

    Nobody takes them seriously, you don't see China or Russia using their considerable influence to cool off North Korea. Why, because they know the NK's aren't serious. Serious assholes-yes, but not worth getting your panties in a bunch over.

    [ February 17, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Axxman300 ]
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  4. #4
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    These fuckin scabs. Have you noticed how with every beat of the war drum in Iraq, the North Koreans echo with some sort of bullshit begging for more of the worlds spotlight? Crybabies arent getting the attention they are craving. Whaaaaaa. I can't believe how childishly they behave on a global stage. They should be completely ashamed. They are without dignity. And they might just be desperate enough to do something really stupid. It's funny, they are so used to internal propaganda used on their own people, they tend to lean towards the same thing with the rest of the world with how we are "shaping up for a first strike" against them and all that utter bullshit. You know what? I could seriously write for another hour easily on this. I'm just kind of aimlessly venting right now with no real point, and I think I've talked enough on this in the past, but really...if there is one place on the planet that deserves an ass whoopin more than Iraq, its these fucksticks.
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    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Originally posted by Ikeda:

    plus, is there a real hatred between north korea and south korea? i don't know the area that well, but it seems like there's a emnity that wasn't present in east and west germany
    Not really. The south truly does have pity upon the people in the North. For a culture that has such emphasis on bloodline, its really pretty heartbreaking in for them in the sense that there are people of their own kind truly suffering up there. There is contempt for the Norths gov't, and Japan of course (still), but at least the people are for the most part cool with each other.
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  6. #6
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Originally posted by Axxman300:
    Nobody takes them seriously, you don't see China or Russia using their considerable influence to cool off North Korea. Why, because they know the NK's aren't serious. Serious assholes-yes, but not worth getting your panties in a bunch over.
    We take them seriously enough to have stationed 40,000 troops in the area for the past 50 years. And it ain't to keep the South from going North. Do you not know the basics of Korean politics?

    Russia sees North Korea as a customer, not a threat. Russia's sphere of influence doesn't encompass North Korea anymore. There's no reason for the Russians to apply pressure to a country that will help its underfunded military-industrial complex survive. China wants nothing more than for North Korea to sit down, shut up, and play along. They do $30 billion a year in trade with South Korea, and North Korea's sabre rattling is threatening that.

    You've consistently tried to make the North Korean threat look minimal, Axxman. Do you have an agenda you'd like to talk about more openly, or are you just ignorant?

    Two weeks ago orders were issued to ready a mix of B-1s and B-52s (24 in total) for deployment to Guam, to act as a deterent force towards North Korea during the coming Gulf conflict. This is probably what kicked off this talk from North Korea of withdrawing from the armistice, and from their point of view those bombers are a threat. There's been a pattern of escalation on their part, with their language becoming more and more aggressive. I don't think they're acting like a child crying for attention at all. They're acting exactly like what they now are: a starving politcally/economically isolated dictatorship newly emboldened by posessing one or more of the most powerful weapons known to man, with the means to deliver it (according to George Tenent).

    Treating them like a child would be a mistake.

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Originally posted by Axxman300:
    Our Korean War?
    i meant what we, the united states, refer to as the korean war. i don't know how the koreans term it - the civil war, the fight against the godless communists/capitalists, the war of outside aggression, etc. a lot of times it's instructive to see how the defeated or other side names a conflict, to figure out what their beef is. like i said, i'm no expert on korea. but they're going nuclear, and they've got a crazy leader, so that makes them more dangerous than saddam.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    I don't have an agenda, I'm one of the historians for the 7th Infantry Division (L). The 7th ID was decimated in the early days of of the Chinese push south. The 7th was then based in South Korea from 1951 until 1971 (Camp Casey).

    In the 1980's the 7th Infantry Division was redesignated the first "Lightfighter" unit and was one of the primary re-enforcement units that was to deploy to Korea in the event of war. With a phone call the 7th ID(L) could be on the Korean Peninsula in 14 hours with three combat ready brigades. The 7th ID(L) almost always had a Battalion or Company in Korea at all times, training. At Fort Hunter-Liggett the 7thID(L) trained under Korean scenarios because of the similar terrain.

    Because of my relationship with former members of the 7thID(L) both Korean War Veterans and former Lightfighters ,who still have friends in the ROK, I have a pretty fucking clear picture on what has and is going on in Korea. When things get serious you will see different reactions from China and Russia. You will see them in closed door sessions at the State Department and you will see them meeting with the Japanese, whom they loathe. You will also see the US spin up Airborne units in Alaska and move units from the 25th ID(L) to Japan or Korea.

    All indicators right now show that N.Korea is just doing some serious chain yanking. The problem is that N.Korea is also very dangerous but becuae they are run by a defacto-madman, the West has to use restraint becuase Kim Jung Il will fly off the handle and start a shooting war. At the very least a war with North Korea will kill 2 million people in the South and in Japan in the first six hours. If their Dong (hehehe) missle can reach the Western US with an atomic payload then depending on where it hits you are looking at 4 million to 7.5 million dead. Those are low numbers by the way. My personal problem is that the folks who want us to be tougher on N.Korea don't understand this or don't care and one thing that bothers me is that they don't blink when I tell them the estimates of the death toll in the first hours. These are old estimates and they don't count the total death toll which could be 75% of the population on the Korean Peninsula.

    Look, the "Axis Of Evil" speech was a mistake, it was the truth, but it's put the United States in a box and has muddied the Bush Admin's foriegn policy posture. It also put a bug in Kim Il's ass, and since he's supremely paranoid he thinks it's only a matter of time before we come gunning for him hence his actions. Compounding the problem is that the Clinton Admin. bent over the last time the North Koreans pulled this stunt so now they think they can get their way every time. How it's worked in the past is we just wait them out until the whole thing drops from the front page and then we deal under the table. They can claim victory and we can say we don't know what the hell they are talking about.

    It's a fifty year old game, it has rules and they ain't gonna change.

    And a correction, the North invaded on their own accord, the Chinese invaded at the behest of Stalin..my bad.

    My agenda is this: First, getting all bent out of shape is exactly what KimJung Il wants, fuck him. Secondly, while I agree with the dropping of the A-Bomb on Japan-twice, the one arguement that I find myself undesided on is if things had been different and Germany was the target, would we have dropped the first, let alone the second? Did the fact that the Japanese were yellow skinned slanty-eyed people play into the desicion? I want to say no, we had taken heavy casulties on our march up the island chain (Iwo Jima, Okinawa) and an invasion would have been costly. The fact is that we saved millions of lives by dropping the bomb...but..the Russians took heavy losses trying to take Berlin and I don't see us dropping the bomb in the Geramns....Now here we are with a situation that could escalate into a nuclear exchange if it gets misshandled and the critics don't seem to care about the body count. I have to ask why that is.

    The situation will be resolved.
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  9. #9
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    First regarding the A-bomb use in WWII. The bombs were dropped on Japan in August of 1945. Germany was defeated in April (and we knew they were going to be defeated soon anyway). The A-Bomb was first tested (exploded) in July of 1945 – 3 months after the Germans surrendered. The use of the A-bomb saved a million American casualties but it also saved about tenfold the number of Japanese. Any doubts about the Japanese military and civilian devotion to fight to the last and/or then committing suicide instead of being captured can be assuaged by viewing the women of Sapain jumping off cliffs with their babies in their arms. If it were not for the cameramen many Americans would probably not believe it happened since so many “need to see the evidence.”

    The North Koreans need only refer to what happened 10 years ago when they decided to rattle sabers. To them it results in former U.S. presidents flying to their country to beg them not to go to war with the U.S.. Sitting Presidents to talk directly to them and legitimize their regime which all results in heating oil, other aid, and nuclear reactors. The North Koreans get a lot for acting like jerks.

    It’s the same this time except this administration is not falling for it. But, they can’t discount their threat, which is considerable. The people saying we should treat North Korea like we are treating Iraq can’t really be serious because they just can’t be that ignorant – I hope. I think it’s just another way for Bush-haters to criticize him. The “Axis of Evil” statement has NOTHING to do with the latest North Korean belligerence. It was planned a long time ago and timed to take advantage of perceived distraction. The North Koreans have nothing to gain from starting a war. If they did, they’d have started one a long time ago. Their leaders are wacky, but I don’t think they are suicidal. All they are trying to do is prop up their dying regime the only way they know how.
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  10. #10
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    05.17.09 @ 06:50 AM
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    [quote]Originally posted by MikeL:
    Originally posted by Axxman300:
    [qb]Two weeks ago orders were issued to ready a mix of B-1s and B-52s (24 in total) for deployment to Guam, to act as a deterent force towards North Korea during the coming Gulf conflict. This is probably what kicked off this talk from North Korea of withdrawing from the armistice, and from their point of view those bombers are a threat. There's been a pattern of escalation on their part, with their language becoming more and more aggressive. I don't think they're acting like a child crying for attention at all. They're acting exactly like what they now are: a starving politcally/economically isolated dictatorship newly emboldened by posessing one or more of the most powerful weapons known to man, with the means to deliver it (according to George Tenent).

    Treating them like a child would be a mistake.
    Right, part of what seems to be a standard deployment for defensive purposes in the event of war. I am sure N. Korea is very aware of this and are trying to use it to their advantage while our military is slightly more vulnerable due to the build up in Iraq.

    How much of what he says is bullshit or not really isn't the point IMO. That fucker is flexing his muscles and on a plight to initiate a war, it seems there is no stopping it at this point. They scare me personally and they also seem to have a deeper hatred for us than Iraq does.

  11. #11
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    08.12.10 @ 07:15 AM
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    Originally posted by MikeL:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Axxman300:
    Nobody takes them seriously, you don't see China or Russia using their considerable influence to cool off North Korea. Why, because they know the NK's aren't serious. Serious assholes-yes, but not worth getting your panties in a bunch over.
    We take them seriously enough to have stationed 40,000 troops in the area for the past 50 years. And it ain't to keep the South from going North. Do you not know the basics of Korean politics?

    Russia sees North Korea as a customer, not a threat. Russia's sphere of influence doesn't encompass North Korea anymore. There's no reason for the Russians to apply pressure to a country that will help its underfunded military-industrial complex survive. China wants nothing more than for North Korea to sit down, shut up, and play along. They do $30 billion a year in trade with South Korea, and North Korea's sabre rattling is threatening that.

    You've consistently tried to make the North Korean threat look minimal, Axxman. Do you have an agenda you'd like to talk about more openly, or are you just ignorant?

    Two weeks ago orders were issued to ready a mix of B-1s and B-52s (24 in total) for deployment to Guam, to act as a deterent force towards North Korea during the coming Gulf conflict. This is probably what kicked off this talk from North Korea of withdrawing from the armistice, and from their point of view those bombers are a threat. There's been a pattern of escalation on their part, with their language becoming more and more aggressive. I don't think they're acting like a child crying for attention at all. They're acting exactly like what they now are: a starving politcally/economically isolated dictatorship newly emboldened by posessing one or more of the most powerful weapons known to man, with the means to deliver it (according to George Tenent).

    Treating them like a child would be a mistake.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The scholar has spoken....again.

    [ February 18, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: BigBadBrian ]
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  12. #12
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    i don't shrug off those estimates of a possible war's death toll, axxman - to me that's a more compelling arguement than any that we need to take these guys seriously, and put a stop to this, peaceably. i wish we were focusing the diplomatic muscle we've used on iraq to try and derail the north korean nuclear program and jong's regime.

    you could argue that clinton should have driven a harder bargain during his administration. from what i know, the n. koreans already had the necessary radioactive material for weapons by the time clinton came into office. so he already had one hand behind his back. i don't think bush has done anything to improve his leverage with his speeches on pre-emptive first strikes, and the axis of evil. ignoring n. korea won't make his job any easier.

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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    The problem is that North Korea proves the Bush's point on Iraq. If they are not dissarmed soon then down the road everyone will face serious trouble because it will be like trying to get a skunk out from under your house without it spraying.

    They take it seriously enough in Washington. The problem is that at this point any deployment of forces to or near the Korean Peninsula could set the guy off.
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    iraq and n. korea are both serious problems - n. korea having already gone pretty far overboard. but that hardly validates bush's policy. there needs to be a policy of some kind, but he's been all over the map - we should go to war because of WMD, oil, democracy, al queda, human rights, and so on. sure saddam is guilty on all those counts
    ('cept al queda) - but this adminstation seems like it can't focus on anything, and is losing support because of it. they're coming across as desperate, which is silly because they've already decided to go it alone, no matter what the UN says. they should be able deal from a position of power, not rant.

    the thing is, iraq has been contained much more successfully than n. korea has. given iraq's vast resources, don't you think they would already have the bomb if it weren't for the US and UN's actions over the last 12 years? iraq should be a model of sorts for n. korea, pakistan, iran and so on, until we can stem the tide of nuclear proliferation. if we're worried now about fighting a conventional war on two fronts, shouldn't we be working constructively towards eliminating the prospect of nuclear threats from a handful of unfriendly nations?

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    Originally posted by Axxman300:
    The problem is that North Korea proves the Bush's point on Iraq. If they are not dissarmed soon then down the road everyone will face serious trouble because it will be like trying to get a skunk out from under your house without it spraying.

    They take it seriously enough in Washington. The problem is that at this point any deployment of forces to or near the Korean Peninsula could set the guy off.
    Axxman I am genuinely confused by this.
    Are you saying the US's policy is, if a 'Rogue nation' or member of the 'axis of evil' already has, or is developing nukes, then it is best to not fuck with them, but if a country poses no threat to the US in the present, then they should be attacked because they may pose a threat in the future??
    Not sure if I made that as clear as I intended, but that seems........ludicrous.

 

 

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