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  1. #1
    Romeo Delight Cabo5150's Avatar
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    03.10.06 @ 11:47 AM
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    My hats off to the Steele workers who went to Washington to try and get George W. to impose a high tariff on steele coming into this country!!! [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
    It's time America wakes up and starts worring about this country. How many people actually look when they go to buy something, to see where it's made? If you haven't looked lately, try and find something made here. It's a complete joke.
    NAFTA is destroying this country. Any item made in another country and wants to be sold here, should have a huge tax placed on it. Maybe then you would start to see clothes, appliances and electronics start to be manufactured here. In turn that would create an enormous amount of jobs. Let's stop giving our money to other countries.
    Imagine if sports stars all were to tell Nike, we're not going to endorse your product until you build some factories here in the US. Just imagine that. In reality it will never happen. A guy like Jordan or Woods, they don't care. The only thing they care about is the check that Nike cuts them.

    It might seem that I'm ramblimg on here but, I'm a Union construction worker. I help build this country every day and I'm tired of seeing all our money go overseas. It's a simple phrase and I'm sure everyone has seen it before "Buy American and American's Work". It doesn't get any simpler then that!
    Red Rocker Face Down in Cabo!!!

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    If an industry can't compete, than it needs to go. Simple as that. There might be some pain invovled, but in the end our economy is stronger if we focus on what we do well. Obviously steel production is something that can be done cheaper overseas.

    We do well in the technology and service areas. Complex, technical field that require a professional workforce. Who the hell wants to work in a factory making t-shirts for $10 an hour, and who wants to spend $30 on a t-shirt that comes out of that factory? Not me, when I can get it for $15 elsewhere.

    Americans don't want jobs that pay at or near the poverty level. There's no way that most unskilled manufacturing can pay more than at or near the poverty level. Why on earth would we want those kinds of jobs in America? Americans won't work for those wages, which is why those jobs go overseas.

    Those steel workers would better serve themselves, their families, and their country by upgrading their skills and educations. They could find jobs in sustainable, competitive industries rather than waste their time doing what can be done for less elsewhere.

    It's economics and sociology, not politics. Foolish political patchwork can't prevent the inevitable. Want an example? Look at the US shipbuilding industry.

  3. #3
    Good Enough Van Gully's Avatar
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    09.04.17 @ 05:32 AM
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    Hmmmmmmm...

    I understand where both views are coming from.
    "Gully, watch yourself. I am dead serious." - Brett Norton, Emperor of VHLinks.com

  4. #4
    Johnson Rod Pabs's Avatar
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    10.29.09 @ 12:50 PM
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    Donor

    Cabo and Mike both have decent points.

    When it comes down to automobiles or any type of motorized vehicle, I will buy American ( even though most parts are imported ). Regardless, I'll only buy from the American companies in the future.

    I think what it's all boiling down to is being less dependent on foreign products. Being independent may cost more money, but the way I see it, the best way to get out of this recession is to lay out some green. It'll bring more jobs in, more pay raises, and lift the economy. Being cheap and paranoid isn't going to help. Doing it cheaper overseas seems logical, but not when it's going into the pockets of foreigners. We need to put our government's money in the hands of the Americans for a change.
    CHICAGO WHITE SOX - 2005 WORLD CHAMPIONS

    The Chicago White Sox (1901-present) - The Original SOX - Proof

    The Boston Americans (1901)
    The Boston Somersets (1902)
    The Boston Pilgrims (1903-1906)
    The Boston Red Sox (1907-present) - Proof

    The Pilgrims/Americans/Somersets whatever you want to call them, have NEVER displayed "SOX" anywhere on their caps, jerseys, or merchandise, therefore they shouldn't be referred to as such. However, the White Sox have used "SOX" since 1912.

    The SOX are in Chicago...we just allow the Pilgrims/Americans/Somersets to use the name.

    2007 Fantasy Football Champion

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by Pabs:
    When it comes down to automobiles or any type of motorized vehicle, I will buy American ( even though most parts are imported ). Regardless, I'll only buy from the American companies in the future.
    That gets to be more challenging than it sounds. Chrysler is owned by Germans, GM builds many cars in Canada, and Toyota builds a bunch in America. If I recall, that Firebird you've got was built in the great white north.

    Bush's steel tariffs are good for steel workers, but bad for the rest of us. It's not just an 8-30% tariff on imported steel. It's a government imposed price increase of 8-30% for every product made in the US that uses steel in its construction. That kind of cost increase can take an office building from being a wise investment to something that won't be built. If you follow the dollars there, you'll see it slows economic activity and doesn't help to strengthen the economy.

    Cars are a good example. Bush just increased costs for companies building cars in America. That'll impact decisions by companies long-term on where they build their cars, and where they invest thier capital. By increasing the costs of raw materials, Bush encourages companies to move to markets where the materials are less costly.

  6. #6
    Hot For Teacher
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Let's look at it this way. Why is it fair for foreign governments to try and destroy the U.S. Steel industry by dumping their steel here at a loss? That's right they sell it at a price less than it cost to produce. And it is all government supported. This is illegal, it is also a unfair trading practice. The steel industry in America has updated their plants, cut jobs, and worked with their unions to bring the cost of producing steel down. However that does not matter when you have other countries dumping here at below cost.

  7. #7
    Good Enough Van Gully's Avatar
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    09.04.17 @ 05:32 AM
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    Originally posted by dog:
    Let's look at it this way. Why is it fair for foreign governments to try and destroy the U.S. Steel industry by dumping their steel here at a loss? That's right they sell it at a price less than it cost to produce. And it is all government supported. This is illegal, it is also a unfair trading practice. The steel industry in America has updated their plants, cut jobs, and worked with their unions to bring the cost of producing steel down. However that does not matter when you have other countries dumping here at below cost.
    Good points,dog.

    Next...
    "Gully, watch yourself. I am dead serious." - Brett Norton, Emperor of VHLinks.com

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    That said, it doesn't change the ramifications this decision will have on our economy. Costs will increase, and economic activity will be less than it would have been before the tariffs.

    It's pandering for votes. He's very visibly helping an ailing industry. The 163,000 steel workers in the US now owe the man. That help negatively impacts the rest of us, but in ways that aren't easily seen. It's pretty slick politics. PA and WV are states that'll be swayed by it.

    Tariffs are dangerous. They protect one industry at the expense of others, and in the end leave that industry unable to compete. Want a good example?

    Back in the early 90s the laptop business was starting to grow pretty fast, but there was an oversupply of screens in the market. Most US computer makers built laptops here in the US, and took advantage of the low prices on imported screens. A US firm that made screens cried foul, and pushed for tariffs on LCD screens. They got them, 62%. Screens are the single most costly component on a laptop.

    Try to find a laptop today that is made in the US. You'll be looking a long, long time. Where as we used to build them here, companies were forced by the tariff to move their production to countries that weren't affected by it. Most laptops are made in Taiwan now. The company that pushed for the tariffs went out of business in 1998.

    How did tariffs protect our industry and our jobs in that situation? It's very similar to the current steel situation.

    Companies who's products use steel as a main component are going to have to re-evaluate keeping their plants in the US. Their costs just went up, and US jobs are in jeopardy because of that. We've just given an entire industry a reason to stop investing in efficiency for 4 more years. Our president who promised not to raise taxes just did.

    The union carpenter that started this thread... how's he going to reconcile his view when the construction job he would have had falls through because steel prices made the cost of the structure untenable?

  9. #9
    Hot For Teacher
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Mike L,

    First the steel workers will never vote republican. The reason Bush carried WV in 2000 was because of gun control. In the example you cited you mentioned screens for laptops. Fine, but were foreign screen makers dumping their products here? Or was it just the issue of them making it more efficently? Also, the steel industry is much more vital to U.S. interests than screens for laptop computers. I am all for fair trade, but it has to be a 2 way street.

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    It was dumping. Same situation as that which exists currently in the steel industry. Too much excess capacity.

    There's always going to be dumping going on so long as markets are manipulated through tariffs and other unnatural pricing. We dump grain on other nations. That's largely because of hugh farm subsidies that result from price floors and fallow programs. So long as supply is manipulated, there'll be problems.

    Steel is important to our interests, but I can't see where it's more important than the overall health of our economy and trade relations. It can't be helped that the dollar is strong and importing is attractive. Beyond the possibility of someday being faced with an OPEC-like steel consortium, I can't see how maintaining domestic steel production is truly vital to our interests. The OPEC comparison isn't quite on the mark, as we'd still have the resources, just not the infrastructure to quickly make use of them.

    The US is the world's #2 or 3 steel producer. I can't recall which. China is #1, I believe. Romania, Russia, and Japan are the others in the top 5. For a basic industrial process like steel manufacturing, US industry is hard pressed to be able to compete with the near-slave labor to be found in China. Interestingly enough, one of 'our' larger steel companies is a Japanese subsidiary.

    While foreign governments subsidizing their steel production is bad for our steel industry, overall it is very good for our economy. We're able to purchase steel at a discount. That lowers the price of goods.

  11. #11
    Unchained jetm's Avatar
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    11.16.17 @ 07:10 PM
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    Donor

    So we let the steel industry die, and then sometime in the future a real, full-blown war breaks out, and then . . . ? We have no ability at all, to handle our own needs for armory, defense, and infrastructure?

    Just a thought....

  12. #12
    Hot For Teacher
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    JETM,

    That is what I was driving at in my last post. Screens for laptop computers are not critical to any of those areas. Also what do you think is going to happen once the U.S. steel industry dies? Do you think foreign countries will still be dumping steel here at below cost? No, they will be murdering us on the price, because they will have leverage.

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    I thought someone might bring that up. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Wars are no longer fought in that way. It takes 4-5 years to build an aircraft carrier. The Army has stopped tank production (they are modifying existing M1s) in hopes of saving money. Wars are fought with existing stock on hand. Even a major war would be fought like this.

    The speed of warfare has increased. That's due to two factors: technology, and readiness.

    One might think that our readiness levels could suffer by the domestic steel industry shrinking. That's not so. Our major weapons systems don't use the type of steel in question, for one thing. They're made out of special metalurgical formulations.

  14. #14
    Hot For Teacher
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Mike,

    War aside, steel will always be a major part of our construction and infrastructure needs. What will happen to the price of foreign steel if their is no U.S. competition?

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by dog:
    Also what do you think is going to happen once the U.S. steel industry dies? Do you think foreign countries will still be dumping steel here at below cost? No, they will be murdering us on the price, because they will have leverage.
    Doom and gloom. The entire industry wouldn't just die, for one thing. The steel industry has 20% excess capacity right now, and it needs to contract. Not all of that 20% would be in the US...

    Want to talk about murdering us on price? What do you think our government just did to us? They kicked the prices by up to 30%!

    The steel market can only show an increase in price as time goes on. It has to find its equilibrium. That price increase would be gradual. Not an immediate one like we just witnessed.

    When you speak of 'they', you've gotta realize that they're in competition too. Even when the steel industry is sized correctly, there'll be price competition.

 

 

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