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  1. #1
    Eruption BigBadBrian's Avatar
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    Anyone know much about the school voucher issue?
    I'll admit I don't but I think I need to educate myself since a few people I know are bitching about it from one side or another. I know some of you guys are teachers, know teachers, and Mike don't you work for a school system? Would like to know all of your opinions. My two school-age kids go to public school, take advanced classes, and do quite well - I'm pleased with the school system here.
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    Atomic Punk FORD's Avatar
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    Brian, I'm glad you asked.....

    School vouchers are something that Pat Robertson and myself dreamed up as a way to get taxpayer dollars away from the secular humanist liberal public school system which spends more time promoting homosexuality and witchcraft than it does actually educating our children, to private religious schools where children will be programmed to be Conservative Republican robots just like us.

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  3. #3
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    I don't know anything about the legislative language involved, but I know a little about the theory. It starts with the premise that there isn't enough competition in education, and that competition will make for stronger schools. Parents would have the option of sending children to the private school of their choice, and receiving tuition payment from the government. The idea is that they'd be compensated for the taxes they pay to the public schools, and would be able to afford private schools.

    My opinion is that fostering competition amongst chronically underfunded public institutions is a bad idea. We're a faily afluent suburb here, and there's already issues about having enough support staff to allow schools to function well. Paraprofessionals would be the first to go, and we have about half the number we used to have already. They're the folks that assist teachers in a variety of ways, and in our system they work individually with students who are having troubles keeping up with class. If they go, so does that one on one tutoring. It's dangerous to implement a system that drives out 'less efficient' schools. People who support vouchers never discuss what'll be happening to the education of the children who attend one of those schools that is being forced out, and the cascading effects it would have throughout the rest of the public school system.

    Private schools have funding problems too, as I understand it. Many of the people who oppose vouchers do so primarily because the government would be funneling money to what are largely religious institutions. There's a pilot program for this in PA (I believe it's there, but I'm not certain). Something like 90% of the students using vouchers to attend private school were attending religious institutions. That troubles me from a philosophical point of view, but to me it's not nearly as big of deal to me as the long-lasting problems a voucher system would bring to our public schools.

    If someone could construct a well-reasoned argument as to how stripping funds from public schools would somehow improve the quality of education they provide, I'd love to hear it. Voodoo economics always brings a smile to my face. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  4. #4
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    Mike summed it up well. The politicians hide it and say it is to help parents take their kids out of a poor performing school in order to send them to a "better" school. The reality is the more affluent people want to send their kids to private schools and thus take their money from the public school system. The Supreme Court is suppose to hear on the legality of taking public tax dollars and sending it towards private religious schools' tuition.

    In our state thus far the charter school program has produced poorer standardized testing results than the public schools. If a private school is entitled to the public tax dollars shouldn't there be a system of checks and balances to determine the success of the students? To my knowledge there currently is not.

  5. #5
    Niners Fan! SactoFan's Avatar
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    I like the voucher idea and I'm a teacher here in California...
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  6. #6
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    Of course you do. You're a nutty right-winger who's into voodoo economics. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

  7. #7
    Eruption BigBadBrian's Avatar
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    08.12.10 @ 07:15 AM
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    [ February 25, 2002 at 01:10 PM: Message edited by: BigBadBrian ]</p>
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  8. #8
    Eruption BigBadBrian's Avatar
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    08.12.10 @ 07:15 AM
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    Originally posted by FORD:
    [QB
    Brian, I'm glad you asked.....
    [/QB]
    Thanks Reverend, maybe your buddy FORD would like to offer his opinion as well? [img]smile.gif[/img]
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  9. #9
    Niners Fan! SactoFan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MikeL:
    Of course you do. You're a nutty right-winger who's into voodoo economics. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
    Nice! [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

    On the subject...anyone have a problem with the GI Bill? GI Bill gives FEDERAL college money to soldiers and they can go wherever they want.

    How about hospitals? FEDERAL buckage goes to religious hospitals all the time...

    In polls, the people who support vouchers most are poor minority parents who are stuck in a neighborhood which has a crappy school...

    Vouchers have nothing to do with the First Amendment. The government is not promoting anything if vouchers are used...It's simply letting people take their money elsewhere...

    I also am curious about the rights of taxpaying parents whose school is failing their kids...People say,"Send your kids to private school!" Fine, but aren't those parents entitled to the benefits of the tax dollars they have already paid?
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  10. #10
    Niners Fan! SactoFan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FORD:


    Brian, I'm glad you asked.....

    School vouchers are something that Pat Robertson and myself dreamed up as a way to get taxpayer dollars away from the secular humanist liberal public school system which spends more time promoting homosexuality and witchcraft than it does actually educating our children, to private religious schools where children will be programmed to be Conservative Republican robots just like us.

    Praise Jesus!!

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    I'm sure glad FORD isn't a bigot...
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  11. #11
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Originally posted by SactoFan:
    On the subject...anyone have a problem with the GI Bill? GI Bill gives FEDERAL college money to soldiers and they can go wherever they want.
    I'm a beneficiary of that program. Paid in my $1200 back when they only paid me a few hundred a month, and now I get $800/mo back as a full-time student.

    There's a substantial difference between the two ideas. A quality education through the secondary level is something that this country committed to some time ago. Good education is a foundation of--and necessity to--having a democratic government.

    The GI Bill is a benefit to individuals who have served their country. It provides these individuals with a means of pursuing most any kind of training they desire. The money is not intended to support the institutions, but rather support the person pursuing the education. That's why it's structured in monthly payments rather than bi-annual or lumps sums. There is also a stagerred payment scale, based on the hours spent in training each period. The assumption is that part-time student work full-time and are require less financial support.

    School vouchers are not to support students pursuing a wide variety of educational goals. They're designed to partially pay tution at private K-12 schools. They pull money out of public education for the benefit of a minorty of students, to the detriment of the vast majority.

    Want to see societal decline? Hurt public education.

    In polls, the people who support vouchers most are poor minority parents who are stuck in a neighborhood which has a crappy school...
    Of course. They see the school as the problem, and not the child. Don't even suggest that perhaps the parents aren't taking an active role in the child's education.

    The government is not promoting anything if vouchers are used...It's simply letting people take their money elsewhere...
    There's nothing simple about it. The idea behind taxes is that it allows many people to accomplish what few idividuals can. The more money that is pulled from public schools, the less effective they will become. At some point the public school system will either colapse, or there will be a debilitating educational gap between those who have and those who have not.

    Isn't the goal of this idea obstensibly to improve education? Please explain to me how this works on an aggregate level. I'm fairly certain you can't, and that no one can. While it may work for small numbers of individuals, it won't work for the majority.

    I also am curious about the rights of taxpaying parents whose school is failing their kids...People say,"Send your kids to private school!" Fine, but aren't those parents entitled to the benefits of the tax dollars they have already paid?
    They've got the right to work harder (or smarter), and pay for their child's education above and beyond that which society provides. There shouldn't be any free ride. How many problems in those schools are behavioral as opposed to scholastic? Proper behavior needs to be taught at home, not in the classroom.

    If you mean having the choice (effectively) to not pay the educational portion of the tax burden, no. They benefit in the sense of having a relatively well-educated society. Taxes aren't supposed to provide a 1:1 benefit to individuals. If that were possible, there wouldn't be any taxes.

    Most of these parents who don't have the money to send their children to private schools couldn't afford it even with the vouchers. Vouchers don't pay full tuition in most cases.

    Explain to me how vouchers wouldn't be a detriment to the vast majority of students.

    [ February 25, 2002 at 05:50 PM: Message edited by: MikeL ]</p>

  12. #12
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    Mike, I'm with you on parental involvement...That's a huge struggle.
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  13. #13
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    [quote]Originally posted by MikeL:
    Most of these parents who don't have the money to send their children to private schools couldn't afford it even with the vouchers. Vouchers don't pay full tuition in most cases.
    You know as well as I do that if a voucher program existed, the cost of private school education would drop...supply and demand...

    BTW, I couldn't agree with you more about behavior. Personally, I like the OPTION of vouchers. When that Heather Has Two Mommies crap hit the fan in New York...Boy, I would have snatched my kid outta there in a hot minute...
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Originally posted by SactoFan:
    You know as well as I do that if a voucher program existed, the cost of private school education would drop...supply and demand...
    It'd work the other way around. Private schools don't have a lot of excess capacity for new students. They aren't made of money any more than the public schools are. Put vouchers into place, and you've got a situation where there is more demand for private schools. Prices certainly won't decline. Demand goes up, supply stays constant, and prices rise.

    They wouldn't drop for some time, either. Bigger buildings and larger staffs take time to put together, and are rather expensive.

    One thing that I never hear discussed by voucher proponents is what is to be done for students currently enrolled in private schools. Do their parents benefit from this proposed program as well? I can't see how they wouldn't. Existing students would account for the vast majority of school vouchers, not students fleeing the public school system.

    I'm still waiting for someone to explain how vouchers wouldn't negatively impact the effectiveness of our schools, Sacto. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SactoFan:
    Personally, I like the OPTION of vouchers. When that Heather Has Two Mommies crap hit the fan in New York...Boy, I would have snatched my kid outta there in a hot minute...
    So for you it wouldn't be an issue so much with a poorly performing school, but rather the content of the cirriculm? I can understand that. Perhaps that's the real motivator for the idea of vouchers. I can't see any other benefit from them.

    When I was in elementary and we had 'sensitive' subjects like sex ed (started in 5th grade) or disecting sheep's lungs we'd have to take a form home describing the content to our parents. They'd have the option of removing us from class for those activities.

    There are better ways to resolve cirriculum concerns than putting a gun to the head of the entire system.

 

 

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