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Thread: Providence?

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    in the tradition of civil questions to the "other side," and not trying to slam anyone's religous beliefs, what do those who support bush think of his claim that god saved/changed bush's life for a purpose? that bush feels his life (and by extension, his presidency) is governed by providence?

    obviously, you don't have to aggree with 100% of a politicians beliefs - in fact it's usually impossible. but this seems kind of a big one to me. how do you right wingers feel?

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    Sinner's Swing! chewbaccamonkeylunch's Avatar
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    Donor

    Was that divine intervention before or after he quit drinking is what I want to know!
    Dude belives in God. That's cool. He isn't Catholic though, so there is no direct hot-line/ bat phone straight to God like the Pope has. As far as I know, PJP is the only human who has that kind of set up. (although I think Jesse Jackson has a pretend one)
    Who really knows though, this is just the interpretation of some member of the vast right wing conspiracy
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    i'm not talking about just believing in god, but the actual idea that god is directly guiding bush's actions. i don't think i'm misrepresenting his beliefs that he is god's instrument. that is what seems spooky to me. but then again, i'm also worried by the vast right wing conspiracy. except for chewie.

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    Did Bush actually intimate that he feels he is 'God's instrument' or words to that effect?
    If so, I think that is very, very, scary.

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    actually kenny, i did make sure to review some of the material i've read, and i haven't found a direct quote - which is one of the reasons i'm being this delicate. this question is speculative on my part, based in part on bush's public comments and my incomplete understanding of evangelical christians. i'm just a simple catholic boy, which is enough for ashcroft to lock me up .

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    I don't see why Gee Dubbia couldn't be an "instrument of God". There are plenty of examples in the Bible that show God using someone to achieve a goal. I'm having a brain-fart right now & can't think of any examples off the top of my head. This of course all depends if you believe the Bible is truly the works of God [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
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    Many recovered alcoholics can feel that way. They get this new zeal for life and off they go. They also have an accute sence of right and wrong.

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    Whether Bush believes it or not...I really don't think that God is that involved with mankind. We may be a mechanism set in motion. This would explain why bad things happen to good people as well as the other injustices in the world.

    Ikeda- Here is what you need to know about evangelical christians from a southern babtist. Heaven is a prize that is nearly unattainable. Man is a peice of shit and is going straight to hell. The congregation needs to be motivated to do good with either a reward or the threat of ultimate punishment. The less intelligence you have, the better. 'Nuff said.

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    Donor

    Originally posted by chewbaccamonkeylunch:
    Was that divine intervention before or after he quit drinking is what I want to know!
    Dude belives in God. That's cool. He isn't Catholic though, so there is no direct hot-line/ bat phone straight to God like the Pope has. As far as I know, PJP is the only human who has that kind of set up. (although I think Jesse Jackson has a pretend one)
    Who really knows though, this is just the interpretation of some member of the vast right wing conspiracy
    Hmmm...this perhaps isn't a right wing viewpoint but a hardcore Roman Catholic one. Those who aren't devout Catholics (the majority of North American Christians) believe the Pope has no more "access" to God than the average Joe does.
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Ik,

    Appreciate the civil tone, but a far more important question to be asking these days is: what do those who don't support Bush think of a huge chunk of the Islamic world's claim that Allah grants you 72 virgins for slaughtering the humans that Islam defines as the infidel?

    In light of this extremely valid question (at least it's still valid to 3100 victims of Islamic radicalism & their families...but apparently no longer to partisan leftist scum...), one wonders how the obsession with stopping evil Bush is somehow more important than stopping creeping anti-Western atrocities.

    Those that still have a grip on logic would define that obsession as "hypocrisy".

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    well, as i understand the world's practicing muslim population, most of them don't really believe that if they blow themselves up for allah they get 72 virgins. al queda is a murderous, fundamentalist minority, and to equate them with islam would be like equating the klan with christianity.

    obviously i'm not pro-bush. i'm not pro-saddam either, but i don't think this war will curb terrorism or make us safer. i'm just asking the people who support bush, does his religous perspective play into their support, or is that irrelevant, and they support him for other reasons?

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    Originally posted by therealdeal:
    Ik,

    Appreciate the civil tone, but a far more important question to be asking these days is: what do those who don't support Bush think of a huge chunk of the Islamic world's claim that Allah grants you 72 virgins for slaughtering the humans that Islam defines as the infidel?

    In light of this extremely valid question (at least it's still valid to 3100 victims of Islamic radicalism & their families...but apparently no longer to partisan leftist scum...), one wonders how the obsession with stopping evil Bush is somehow more important than stopping creeping anti-Western atrocities.

    Those that still have a grip on logic would define that obsession as "hypocrisy".

    The Real Deal

    PS: I didn't vote for Bush & I'm not a Republican
    "Partisan leftist scum"?? Nice. 3 questions for you.
    1) Are you associating 9/11 with Iraq? Iraq is Bush's current concern, so I assume you are.

    2) Do you really feel that an invasion of Iraq will deter future terrorist attacks on the US, Britain or Australia? I am concerned the opposite may be the case.

    3) You feel that the murder of innocents in 9/11, Bali, etc is an atrocity, and I agree fully. Is killing innocent Iraqi civilians somehow different? Is it because we are supposed to be 'the good guys'?, and they are just dispensable?

    Try and play nice now.

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    Ikeda, sorry for the interlude. I'm just interested in the thought process of this guy.

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    12.18.17 @ 11:34 AM
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    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    i'm just asking the people who support bush, does his religous perspective play into their support, or is that irrelevant, and they support him for other reasons?
    I too, tire at times listening to Bush's religious right rhetoric. The thing is, I don't think it's a politically smart move. He alienates some, Democrats and Republicans with it and he could still have the majority of the religious right in his pocket even if he toned it down some. Yeah, I support him for other reasons. I simply turn the channel when he goes off on one of these religious vents. Maybe he's just getting some bad political advice.
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    Donor

    Originally posted by kenny5150:
    You feel that the murder of innocents in 9/11, Bali, etc is an atrocity, and I agree fully. Is killing innocent Iraqi civilians somehow different? Is it because we are supposed to be 'the good guys'?, and they are just dispensable?
    They may end up just as dead, but the circumstances and reasons behind their deaths will be completely different than the deaths due to terrorism. So yes, it is different. It's the difference between intent and purpose to kill innocents, and accepting the deaths of innocents as an unintended consequence.

    If you really want to go out on a limb, you could claim that the terrorists were trying to make the world a better place for their children by encouraging another society to change, in the same way that we're encouraging Iraq to change. That's a limb I wouldn't want to go out on, however. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Anyways, it doesn't bother me at all when Bush talks about his god. That's part of the game, and regardless of what he really believes he's got to play along. He's going to alienate fewer people by talking about god than he would if he acted as though it didn't play a role in his life. I don't think very many people who sit in that office get there without compromising their soul, if they believe in god at all.

 

 

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