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Thread: Bush AWOL

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    just want to hear how people who support the armed forces feel about bush's actions during vietnam. he seems to have gotten a free pass in the media about his going AWOL from the texas air guard, while a guy who's paid his dues, colin powell, has gotten piled on in the white house by cheney, rumsfeld and others. does anyone else have a problem with bush as a commander-in-chief?

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    Sinner's Swing! Aquatic Punk's Avatar
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    01.11.12 @ 06:57 PM
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    hey, after Clinton, Bush looks like a war hero
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    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 05:59 AM
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    I have no problem with those who avoided fighting in Vietnam as all it seems we were doing over there was sending those guys over to die, anyway, so I'm understandable to those who were able to avoid that. Only wish more had been able to get out of it.

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    i agree that individuals had the right to avoid what was a meatgrinder of a war, and it would be naive to expect everyone to file for conscientous objecter status. but clinton, who had a number of flaws, got hammered for dodging the draft, whereas bush's dad got him a cushy spot in the air national guard. not only that, but dubya left duty without permission for a year, and was never disciplined, much less called to task for it in the media. clinton pissed me off on a number of fronts, but at least he was acting on some kind of conviction and not hiding behind his dad. because of vietnam, i don't think either made very credible commander-in-chiefs, but clinton had the grace to defer to men like powell.

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Originally posted by Aquatic Punk:
    hey, after Clinton, Bush looks like a war hero
    Oh, and Clinton didn't let 3000 people get killed on his watch, much less start two wars (Afghanistan and Iraq) over seas. Bush may "look" like a war hero, but I'm saying that's what the problem.

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    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 05:59 AM
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    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    Oh, and Clinton didn't let 3000 people get killed on his watch, much less start two wars (Afghanistan and Iraq) over seas. Bush may "look" like a war hero, but I'm saying that's what the problem.
    That's debateable - how many people were on the U.S.S. Cole? It was 168 in Oklahoma City. Then there were some other bombings. Maybe the total wasn't quite 3,000, but it was more than enough...

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    Eruption BigBadBrian's Avatar
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    08.12.10 @ 07:15 AM
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    [quote]Originally posted by Ikeda:
    Oh, and Clinton didn't let 3000 people get killed on his watch,
    Clinton didn't too much at all for the nation's military.....except strip it bare and drastically reduce the budget of all of the intelligence services, leading to reductions in personnel.
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    Sinner's Swing! el_jalepeno's Avatar
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    10.28.15 @ 05:22 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by BigBadBrian:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ikeda:
    Oh, and Clinton didn't let 3000 people get killed on his watch,
    Clinton didn't too much at all for the nation's military.....except strip it bare and drastically reduce the budget of all of the intelligence services, leading to reductions in personnel.
    </font>
    Maybe so, but the economy was soaring during the Dems, and now we have hit all-time lows in unemployment claims. I agree that Bush is making this whole issue on Iraq a political move to gain sympathy, just as his father did. Flame on [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bounce.gif[/img]

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    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    I give Clinton a pass on the Vietnam thing. He had his convictions, and he found ways to live up to them--legally. I can handle that. I don't agree with it, but so long as a person truly believes in what they're doing and it's a legal course of action, what am I to say?

    When I was in the military, I hated people like Bush. I signed up to do what I believed in, and it was plain that some of the individuals I came in contact with were there for other reasons. I looked down on people who didn't perform to their abilities, or shirked their duty through personal connections. Saying I looked down on them is an understatement, I suppose. COWARDLY, LAZY SACKS OF SHIT comes closer to how I really feel. A person's true character shows through their actions.

    I can't blame Clinton for the state of the military in the 90s. I blame history. We'd won the cold war, and it didn't make sense to continue spending at the levels we spent in the 80s. It was unsustainable. Instead we had a decade of prosperity. After winning a 40-year showdown with the Communists we deserved it.

    I can't blame Clinton for 9/11, nor can I blame Bush. Sometimes bad things happen, and we can't always out-smart or out-manuever the enemy. Bush's defense department had been preparing for huge cuts in the active military prior to 9/11, on the order of 25%. This was one of the ways the tax-cuts would be financed. Unfortunately for us shit happens, and now we're going back into debt once again. Nobody has a crystal ball.

    I can understand Clinton's actions with regards to Vietnam. I can't understand Bush's. His beliefs (as demonstrated by his actions) were the same as Clinton's, yet he was too cowardly to follow through. If people somehow find that respectable, I guess I know which side of the fence they land on.

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    thanks for the reply MikeL, and thanks for serving too. i don't personally blame bush for 9/11, but he's the captain of the ship, so it does fall on his shoulders. the sad thing is, it's probably the best thing that's happened to his presidency, given the support he's gotten since then. i hate to think of 3000 souls as a polical game piece, but i guess that's nothing new. i do agree with your estimation of him.

    i think the military cuts date back to bush's dad, given in part to reagan's maxing out defense. clinton carried out further cuts, and i know dubya's already caught some flack for leaning on veteran's benefits. it seems like none of them have done much to take care of the service men, and anytime someone talks about money for defense, they mean pork barrel projects and not salaries or benefits.

    i don't have your experience, but it seems like clinton fucked things right up at the start with "don't ask, don't tell" and bush tried to buy off the military by giving them all black berets. neither one did a very good job of taking care of the blue collar guys.

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    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    12.15.17 @ 10:48 AM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by el_jalepeno:
    Maybe so, but the economy was soaring during the Dems, and now we have hit all-time lows in unemployment claims.
    I'll call bullshit on that every time I see it. How can you allow yourself to believe that the "dems" had anything to do with the economy prosperous or not, and blame unemployment on Bush? Ridiculous. Were we just booming around election time economically under Clinton or was the economy already tanked?? You know the answer to that if you have any grounds to discuss this. And if you do, then how can you logically come to the conclusion that current unemployement status responsibility lies with Bush or the right?

    That arguement really gets me. [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img]
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    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    it seems like none of them have done much to take care of the service men, and anytime someone talks about money for defense, they mean pork barrel projects and not salaries or benefits.
    You're right about the cuts starting with Bush Sr., but under the wrong impression when it comes to benefits for the serviceman. I was in from '95-'99, and I'm fairly sure we got the maximum increases in pay allowed by law during that time. There was also a real focus on quality of life, with better housing and barracks being built at bases around the world.

    The drop off was in training and readiness. Units like the 82nd Airborne were being forced to use building maintainence funds to conduct training. That's not sustainable.

    i don't have your experience, but it seems like clinton fucked things right up at the start with "don't ask, don't tell" and bush tried to buy off the military by giving them all black berets. neither one did a very good job of taking care of the blue collar guys.
    I didn't care too much about "don't ask, don't tell." It was before my time, and mostly a joke when I was in. It didn't change the reality of military life much.

    The berets are ridiculous, but that was the Army leadership pushing them. Never underestimate the power of stupidity. Everybody bitched and moaned about peacekeeping missions and a more proactive use of the military during Clinton's tenure, but that was the JCS selling themselves. In order to maintain their relevence and budgets, they felt the need to make themselves useful. They're the ones that failed to look out for their troops.

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    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 05:59 AM
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    Someone wanna 'splain these "Black Berets"?

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    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    For the Army's 225th aniversary this year they issued black berets to everybody. Previously it'd been reserved for elite units. Somehow the Army brass thought that if they made the beret a mandatory issue item it'd raise moral and cohesion. Pretty dopey, huh? Purchase hundreds of thousands of difficult to wear hats from the Chinese and use them to piss off your best soldiers by taking something they'd had as a symbol of pride and accomplishment by giving it to everyone. Brilliant!

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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Originally posted by seenbad:
    I'll call bullshit on that every time I see it. How can you allow yourself to believe that the "dems" had anything to do with the economy prosperous or not, and blame unemployment on Bush? Ridiculous. Were we just booming around election time economically under Clinton or was the economy already tanked?? You know the answer to that if you have any grounds to discuss this. And if you do, then how can you logically come to the conclusion that current unemployement status responsibility lies with Bush or the right?
    [/QB]
    When it comes to the economy, presidents are like quarterbacks - they get all the praise, or all the blame. The economy is a bitch to predict, much less correct. But if things were going well, you know Bush would be crowing about his great business sense, blah, blah, blah. When he rehashes old Reagonomics, then holds a fake-ass, made for TV economic summit in Waco, he doesn't do much to add to his credibility. Clinton comes in, economy goes up. Bush comes in, economy nosedives. It's pretty easy to connect those dots.

    But that's not what i started the thread to talk about. the question is, would you call bullshit on bush not being a fit leader?

 

 

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