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  1. #1
    Good Enough Cabo Kid's Avatar
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    08.27.15 @ 02:07 AM
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    I've been wondering this for quite a while, especially when Sec. Powell revealed the latest bin Laden tape last week and the "apparent" ties to Saddam Hussein. However, I'm not sure at this point IF there is a genuine link or if we're creating one that will make the declaration of war easier.

    I was listening to Glenn Beck yesterday and he was raising some important concerns, some of which I've been wondering about for awhile.

    Don't you think if Bush wanted to go in and take out Saddam he'd HAVE to have something more than supposition right now? And if that's the case, wouldn't NOW be the time to reveal it? After yesterday's apparent widening between UN support for miliatry force in Iraq, it appears that the corner the US has painted itself into has gotten a lot smaller.

    I'm not slagging the President or the efforts to oust Saddam Hussein right now. Quite the contrary. I do believe that the regime of Hussein needs to be held accountable for 12+ years of ignoring UN demands, demands which they agreed to, and I'd like to see us go back in to finish what we started. Restart "Desert Storm", as Glenn Beck said yestereday, WHICH according to the post 91 war in Iraq, we have the right to do. (ie: violations of UN sanctions & demands allow for this to happen)

    But I do think in cases of IMMEDIATE dangers, we have one due west of the continental US we might want to reconsider a LOT more sooner than later.

    Which also brings me to another question. IF we are to go in and successfully bring down Saddam and his regime of terror, who's next? Will we then make more efforts to go before the UN to bring down Iran, Libya, Syria and even North Korea or will we just keep it moving while we're over there?

    I'm not a "Susan Sarandon" type...not in the least. I just want to know that everything we're doing is truly justified (which after 9/11 I think we are, especially in these 'pre-emptive strikes') and if there is something that Bush and Powell know that will solidify the case against Iraq (and isn't fabricated or tied together by assumption...ie: the tape) then let's hear about it.

    Any war/political experts out there feel free to jump in and help educate me.

    (note: I know this is quite an emotional topic now, but let's try to keep it civil and w/out racial slurs or seenbad or DIF can just delete it immediately.)
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  2. #2
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    cabo, i think there are significant voices on the right & middle who are asking the same questions. i'm liberal myself, so you can take what i say with a grain of salt.

    it used to be that powell was representative of those cooler heads who favored a strong stance, but used diplomacy instead of war rhetoric. he seems to be falling more in line with the cheney/rumsfeld side of the white house, the "hawks."

    i think you're correct that we've painted ourselves into a corner. it would be nice if there were information that allowed us to break out of this corner, as it were. but that doesn't seem likely. i think bush and his people decided they had to have this war, and they'll use any means to justify that end. there's been a large amount of dissembling and spinning outdated and incorrect intelligence. that hasn't been enough to sway our allies, so i think bush will decide to go it alone (with britain and rumania). for him to back down now would be too large a loss of face on the world stage, and expose him badly back home.

    saddam needs to go, but i feel there are bigger priorities that are being badly neglected because of the president's tunnel vision. bin laden, pakistan, north korea, and our commitment to afghanistan are more important, imo. obviously i disagree with the president idealogically, but i think he's performed poorly in real world results as well.

    anyways, thanks for the civil question. maybe we can get some perspective from those to the right of me? [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

  3. #3
    Good Enough Cabo Kid's Avatar
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    08.27.15 @ 02:07 AM
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    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    cabo, i think there are significant voices on the right & middle who are asking the same questions. i'm liberal myself, so you can take what i say with a grain of salt.
    Actually, when I was thinking of this, I was trying to construct a "non-partisan" discussion, if you will. I'm more of a "conservative" but I think with your response it does show that we all can get along...some of the time. And no worries about taking your opinion with a grain of salt. I'm happy to see that it was made with a spirit of maturity and level-headedness. That's all we need though right now...another "right" vs. "left" argument.

    If anyone wants to add something in a civil and constructive manner, bring it on! [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]


    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    i think you're correct that we've painted ourselves into a corner. it would be nice if there were information that allowed us to break out of this corner, as it were. but that doesn't seem likely. i think bush and his people decided they had to have this war, and they'll use any means to justify that end. there's been a large amount of dissembling and spinning outdated and incorrect intelligence. that hasn't been enough to sway our allies, so i think bush will decide to go it alone (with britain and rumania). for him to back down now would be too large a loss of face on the world stage, and expose him badly back home.
    Which makes me wonder what is the lesser of two evils...

    Bush recants his warhawk stance OR goes into this fray with only a few primary backers. I'm not sure if we're ever going to get France, Germany & Russia on the page regardless, so they may not need to be a factor in this...unless Russia decides to rattle their sabres a bit too. However, with Putin's and Bush's reported friendship, I wonder how this situation is affecting it.

    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    saddam needs to go, but i feel there are bigger priorities that are being badly neglected because of the president's tunnel vision. bin laden, pakistan, north korea, and our commitment to afghanistan are more important, imo.
    I agree as well.

    Originally posted by Ikeda:
    anyways, thanks for the civil question. maybe we can get some perspective from those to the right of me? [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
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  4. #4
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    s'cool cabo. i never thought you were going to go all "susan sarandon" on us [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

    i'm curious to see seen, mike and the other "mature" type fellows weigh in. then you have the likes of me, chewie, gravedigger, schultz, and the other beer swillers

  5. #5
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    The U.N. opposes us because we want to go. Were it some second rate country they'd be all behind it and expect us to foot the bill both in man power and money.

    The U.N. didn't want us to intervene in the Balkans in spite of the well documented acts of genocide. They've become too comfortable with facists and mass murderers. France, Germany, Russia and China all have economic intrests in Iraq and in other parts of the region, most importantly the Caspian Sea Oil industry and pipeline that NEEDS Saddam right where he is to pull an Enron type scam on oil prices from that area. The most vocal members of Congress, most notably Ted Kennedy, are in the pockets of Caspian Sea Oil Industry lobbyist, known as the Foreign Oil Comanies Group. Durring the Clinton Admn, Sandy Burger, Anthony Lake and Sheila Heslin all held stocks or were in collusion with Caspian Sea oil intrests and stood in the way of any real progress with dealing with Iraq. This is why Operation Desert Fox was only an air campain even though President Clinton made a brilliant statement for the importance of removing Saddam Hussein.

    Clinton left that problem for somebody else.

    Meanwhile, the French are unchallenged in their war in the Ivory Coast to protect diamonds. A.N.S.W.E.R., a wing of the World Worker's Party, doesn't seem to care because they are racists and the French are just killing a bunch of dirt poor negroes.

    Since 9/11 we have turned a blind eye to Russia's questionable tactics in Chechnya, wich include indiscriminant shelling of cities leading to mass civilian casualties. In return we've received cooperation from them in our war on terror. While we appreciate their help the fact is they are getting away with murder and no one will ever say boo about it. At the very least Russia owes us a big "Shut the fuck up".

    I have no problem with Germany sitting this one out. They've earned their place on the side line. It would be nice though if they'd be a little more willing to share the freedom that they've had since the end of WWII with other people on this planet, but then the Germans have always been selfish assholes.

    The U.N. resolution called for the Iraqis to dissarm, declare their weopons of mass destruction and if they'd destroyed them. provide proof. Iraq has done none of that. The Inspection teams have found empty artillery shells used to deploy chemical weapons and a missle that violated the range designated in U.N. treaties as unacceptable. None of these were declared by Iraq. What was not part of the resolution was the game of "Marco Polo" that the Inspection teams have been playing. Iraq is to lead them to their weapons and hand them over, we know they have them because they've admitted in writing that they have them. They have not done this, they are in clear violation of the UN resolution, they will pay.

    The U.N.'s reluctance to back us on this issue is further evidence of it's irrelevance. Satnding for freedom and social justic means that sometimes you have to fight for it.
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  6. #6
    Master Bluesman Elwood P.'s Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 11:45 PM
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    Originally posted by Cabo Kid:
    [QB
    Don't you think if Bush wanted to go in and take out Saddam he'd HAVE to have something more than supposition right now? And if that's the case, wouldn't NOW be the time to reveal it
    /QB]
    Remember something. The stuff you saw/heard Powell give on TV was 1/10 (maybe) of what the US has on Saddam. They're not going to display all the intel/satellite photos etc. I've even heard the photos they've shown have been "blurried up". There's alot of stuff there. Just because the UN inspectors can't find a decent hamburger stand in Iraq doesn't mean much.

    Same thing goes for the info from dissidents, spies, covert military in Iraq. The US doesn't want Iraq (and other countries) to know all they've got.

    Iraq's dirty.
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  7. #7
    Master Bluesman Elwood P.'s Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 11:45 PM
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    Originally posted by Ikeda:

    that hasn't been enough to sway our allies, so i think bush will decide to go it alone (with britain and rumania
    There's alot more folks on board than just Britian and Romania. More countries are on board than off as a matter of fact.
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  8. #8
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    07.15.07 @ 05:40 AM
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    Originally posted by Cabo Kid:
    I've been wondering this for quite a while, especially when Sec. Powell revealed the latest bin Laden tape last week and the "apparent" ties to Saddam Hussein. However, I'm not sure at this point IF there is a genuine link or if we're creating one that will make the declaration of war easier.

    I was listening to Glenn Beck yesterday and he was raising some important concerns, some of which I've been wondering about for awhile.

    Don't you think if Bush wanted to go in and take out Saddam he'd HAVE to have something more than supposition right now? And if that's the case, wouldn't NOW be the time to reveal it? After yesterday's apparent widening between UN support for miliatry force in Iraq, it appears that the corner the US has painted itself into has gotten a lot smaller.

    I'm not slagging the President or the efforts to oust Saddam Hussein right now. Quite the contrary. I do believe that the regime of Hussein needs to be held accountable for 12+ years of ignoring UN demands, demands which they agreed to, and I'd like to see us go back in to finish what we started. Restart "Desert Storm", as Glenn Beck said yestereday, WHICH according to the post 91 war in Iraq, we have the right to do. (ie: violations of UN sanctions & demands allow for this to happen)

    But I do think in cases of IMMEDIATE dangers, we have one due west of the continental US we might want to reconsider a LOT more sooner than later.

    Which also brings me to another question. IF we are to go in and successfully bring down Saddam and his regime of terror, who's next? Will we then make more efforts to go before the UN to bring down Iran, Libya, Syria and even North Korea or will we just keep it moving while we're over there?

    I'm not a "Susan Sarandon" type...not in the least. I just want to know that everything we're doing is truly justified (which after 9/11 I think we are, especially in these 'pre-emptive strikes') and if there is something that Bush and Powell know that will solidify the case against Iraq (and isn't fabricated or tied together by assumption...ie: the tape) then let's hear about it.

    Any war/political experts out there feel free to jump in and help educate me.

    (note: I know this is quite an emotional topic now, but let's try to keep it civil and w/out racial slurs or seenbad or DIF can just delete it immediately.)
    I'm just glad someone else here listens to Glenn Beck. Brings a tear to my eye. LOL

  9. #9
    Good Enough Cabo Kid's Avatar
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    08.27.15 @ 02:07 AM
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    Oh yeah...Glenn Beck RAWKS!! [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

    Seriously, he does have a great grasp, IMO, of what's really going on. Hannity is OK, Savage is a little too "conspiracist" for my liking, but he's tolerable. Just got his book the other day, but haven't had a chance to get into it yet.

    Good points too, Elwood. I'm pretty sure if we're making such a stink to go off to war, we probably have a good reason(s) to back up our thinking. I'd just like to hear what they are as war looms closer. As far as Iraq being dirty, oh you bet. There's no defending a tyrant like Hussein. However, on a bigger scale, I wonder who'll be the next regime we actually go after with such vigor...if we're all still around to get to the next round.
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  10. #10
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    09.15.15 @ 08:40 AM
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    i agree with you cabo, i don't think that we can go to war with just an "i, uh, think so" attitude. that being said, yeah, saddam needs his ass kicked and he has for as long as i can remember.
    but, with bush's ties to the oil industry, i can't help but be cynical about this whole plan. to me, i think greater threats right now are afghanistan and north korea, but the first word you hear on the news every night is still "hussein".

    also, axxman, you are so right about russia. i think about that alot too.

  11. #11
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    08.12.10 @ 07:15 AM
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  12. #12
    Master Bluesman Elwood P.'s Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 11:45 PM
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    [quote]Originally posted by Ikeda:
    unless you believe we can install a stable democratic government in 18 months. even that pollyanish hope hasn't had a concrete price tag on it yet, that i've heard of.
    Yeah, that's the one big question to me, the Iraqi people don't know the meaning of the word democracy so how are we going to teach them? And how long will that take? No one really knows.
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  13. #13
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    01.28.16 @ 03:05 AM
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    The questions we need to ask, IMO is:

    Why are we going to war with Iraq?
    Saddam is a madman, yes, but there are lot's of madmen all over the world.

    [i]Is Iraq a threat to The United States?[/]
    I'm sure he has some weapons. Some germ or chemical. I doubt he has any nuclear. Certainly he hasn't any more than many other rogue nations.

    Does the ends justify the means?
    When we go to war with Iraq. What will the rest of the world do? How will they react? What will be the cost? Is it right for the USA to crush Iraq? The Gulf War had total different circumstances. Arabia and the Arab nations asked for our help. Iraq was extorting the shipments of oil, which affects our economy. Totally different situation today.

    What if it were your son or daughter? Is going to war with Iraq worth the price of the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of American soldiers?

    This is the hardest question of all. I know we have to protect Freedom ,Democracy, and the American way...But is Saddam such a threat, that we risk the deaths of our soldiers?
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    12.19.16 @ 05:15 PM
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    Want yer ass kicked?? Get in line behind:
    a) Iraq
    b) N. Korea
    c) Iran
    d) Syria
    e) Pakistan
    f) Indonesia

    If this "war" with Iraq was about oil, I think the Bushies would be pushing for LESS offensive actions, much like the French. If I'm not mistaken, their cowardice is all about crude. If the Bush Administration was all about oil, wouldn't we have done something in Venezuela by now???

  15. #15
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Originally posted by Elwood P.:
    There's alot more folks on board than just Britian and Romania. More countries are on board than off as a matter of fact.
    true enough, i was just being a little sarcastic. i know we've got australia, italy, spain, turkey, and a lot of eastern europe, along with negotiations for concessions from saudia arabia, iran, eygpt, and other muslim powers.

    but if we're serious about this, and we're going to fix this giant fucked-up situation instead of continuing to ignore it, it would be helpful to have "old europe," russia and japan on board for the post-war clean-up and reconstruction. it's just another of the details on iraq that seems to be neglected, unless you believe we can install a stable democratic government in 18 months. even that pollyanish hope hasn't had a concrete price tag on it yet, that i've heard of.

 

 

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