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  1. #1
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Are politicians all stupid, or just the ones that propose ridiculous solutions and make foolish promises?

    Our new Gov. Pawlenty here in MN made a campaign pledge not to raise taxes. Of course, we're a state facing a $3-4 billion budget shortfall in the next few years. One of his "solutions" was asking Ventura not to release a state aid payment to cities and counties. The payment is made twice a year, and is something like $300 million. Sure, that saves the state government the money, but puts one hell'uva crunch on the municipalities... and forces them to raise taxes! Ventura didn't comply with the request. What a chump Pawlenty is. [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img]

    Bush's new stimulus package strikes me as foolish, too. I'll save something like $200 over the year. Great. About $16 bucks a month. That's not even beer money on a night out! There's nothing conservative about deficiet spending. There's no real stimulus for the economy. It's just sound byte politics that we'll all have to pay for later, only with interest. Thanks, George. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

    Then there's that nut Rangels who wants to reinstate the draft to cause "...greater willingness to work with the international community in dealing with Iraq." What a bunch of bunk. Spending billions to clothe, feed, and house every young American for a year or two is a frighteningly stupid idea. Not only that, but such a huge influx of untrained individuals who don't want to serve would cripple our military and change it from the most powerful professional fighting force in history to a bunch of impotent, over-paid babysitters. What the fuck, ya know? [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img]

    [ January 09, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: MikeL ]

  2. #2
    Good Enough Van Gully's Avatar
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    09.04.17 @ 05:32 AM
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    I agree with your last paragraph concerning the proposed draft. But what would you suggest to stimulate the economy? Raise taxes? Taxes have never stimulated an economy.
    "Gully, watch yourself. I am dead serious." - Brett Norton, Emperor of VHLinks.com

  3. #3
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    I think increased consumer confidence is the only thing that can stimulate an economy in the short-term. I don't believe that Bush can deliver the policies or news that will give people a reason to change their spending habits, given the circumstances of the world. I'm sure you heard about the stop-loss that the USMC put in place today, Gully.

    By the time any tax cuts came into effect the economy will likely be growing again. Much of the plan doesn't take effect until 2004 and 2006. Consumer confidence took a hit in December, and I doubt it'll improve given the details of Bush's plan. Even if it were a plan with more immediate impact I don't think it would inspire people to spend. People are unsure of the future, given the impending war with Iraq, the lingering threat of terrorism, and the spectre of a nuclear North Korea. I think finding ways to quickly alieve those fears would help the economy more than anything, but I don't think that's in line with the administration's goals.

  4. #4
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by MikeL:


    Bush's new stimulus package strikes me as foolish, too. I'll save something like $200 over the year. Great. About $16 bucks a month. That's not even beer money on a night out! There's nothing conservative about deficiet spending. There's no real stimulus for the economy. It's just sound byte politics that we'll all have to pay for later, only with interest. Thanks, George.

    The key thing that youre missing here is that its not a tax cut for YOU, or US, its to stimulate an ailing economy. There is NOTHING else that a govn't can do to stimulate economy like a tax cut can. Does it benefit the rich? Sure it does! So what and how could it not when the top 5% pays for 50% of the taxes in this country? So they save a little at the end of the year, big deal. The key is, that this will be a gigantic green light to buy stock without worry of being taxed on gains. Middle income can benefit from this as much as anybody, but in smaller numbers just because there isn't as much to invest. I don't know about you, but I sure don't have an extra million or so to go out and gobble up 10k shares of abc or xyz stock and make an easy 100k, but I'll sure be glad to reap the benefits of those that do through them dumping their money back into businesses, businesses getting stronger with more spending/research and development/ and expansion power behind the stockholders dollar. It creates more jobs, average pay for positions go up because there is more demand for employees to fill positions, and stability is achievable.

    I tend to lean towards rants on these things, but my main point is that it seems the country's focus is really blurry about the intent of this cut, especially in the area of capital gains. It' for the economy, not the individual, yet the left wing and many leftish followers are using this as an opportunity to trash Bush because individuals don't benefit from it immediately and as a whole. Well, thats just bullshit. The democrats plan would give everybody an extra three hundred bucks per worker back into their pockets....what the hell would that do to for the ECONOMY?? [img]graemlins/wtf.gif[/img] Again, the individual is not the point in this plan. It's the economy, and hopefully when the economy gets better from the stimulation at wall st., the individual will reap the gains later.

    anyways, your state sounds quite a bit like mine right now in trying to patch the deficit dykes. Taxes taxes taxes....more taxes on the way. I like how our new bitchass govenor is proposing a "temporary" income tax hike for the state. As if!! Remember the first "temporary" income tax? It was to fund wwII and its done nothing but grow since then. Once the hooks are in, their in.

    Govn't sucks my white hairy ass!! [img]graemlins/yell.gif[/img] left and right both!! [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img]

    To compound it for me, I had pleaded innocent in a traffic violation (failure to obey traffic sign, turned left when I wasn't supposed to). In Oregon, you can pretty much add a fucking zero to the end of any traffic fine compared to any other state and thats where we are at. They tripled traffic fines a few years ago to pay for prisons, and that was supposed to be "temporary" as well. The thing is, the fucking city was to blame in my citation for not properly marking the right turn only sign....how the fuck can I comply with the law if they don't clearly identify what the law is?!!? [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img] Anyways, I brought in photographic proof of the err in the cities ways and I still had to pay 210.00 bucks in my fine. The guilty verdict goes to my dmv record and my insurance goes up, and all because this is the city/states fucking MONEY POOL!! [img]graemlins/yell.gif[/img] It has nothing to do with following the law anymore. Rights are dwindling faster than I'm aging for sure. The judge is not there to protect your rights, protect the public blah blah blah anymore, they are the fucking new age mob and their here to take your money legally for the state to fucking blow on dumbass ideas that don't work.

    FUCK AN A I'm pissed off right now...

    What were we talking about again?
    sheepa latta peepah dabba looka foh a moopy

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  5. #5
    Sinner's Swing!
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    Sucks eh'???

    For such a silly thing, you would have had to PAY for a Lawyer to maybe win...

  6. #6
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Donor

    And I will too!! Mother fuckers. Fuck them. Fuckity fuck fucks. Fuck! I'll go in the hole a grand before I give them two hundred, I shit you not.
    sheepa latta peepah dabba looka foh a moopy

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  7. #7
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Originally posted by seenbad:
    So they save a little at the end of the year, big deal. The key is, that this will be a gigantic green light to buy stock without worry of being taxed on gains. Middle income can benefit from this as much as anybody, but in smaller numbers just because there isn't as much to invest. I don't know about you, but I sure don't have an extra million or so to go out and gobble up 10k shares of abc or xyz stock and make an easy 100k, but I'll sure be glad to reap the benefits of those that do through them dumping their money back into businesses, businesses getting stronger with more spending/research and development/ and expansion power behind the stockholders dollar. It creates more jobs, average pay for positions go up because there is more demand for employees to fill positions, and stability is achievable.
    I don't agree with your reasoning, seen. The stock market is not a reasonable picture of the US economy on the whole. Right now stocks are depressed compared to where they were 3 years ago because of certain external factors (dot-com irrationality, corporate scandals, terrorism, and imminent war). Prices are not depressed because of unfavorable tax laws. It has more to do with companies not performing well and a lack of confidence in the future. There is money out there to be invested, and it isn't being invested because of these things. If there was a lack of availible investment capital I'd be willing to agree with you.

    The stock market is an idicator of the economy; it isn't the economy. Companies aren't investing in new plants and jobs because you and I aren't buying enough goods and services. Interest rates are low right now, and investment capital is availible much less expensively than it had been a few years ago.

    Trickle-down economics only works as a theory if the people who save on taxes are willing to invest their money. They're not right now, because the return is poor. That's not because of taxes, but rather due to the cyclical nature of the economy combined with low consumer confidence. Until increasing consumer confidence is reflected on improving corporate balance sheets people will be unwilling to invest in the economy.

    In a nutshell, Bush's proposal is designed to fix the wrong problem. He's trying to make investment capital availible, but it's really consumer confidence that we lack right now.

    [ January 09, 2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: MikeL ]

  8. #8
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Donor

    I completely disagree.

    I know the stock market isn't the only pulse point or indicator of the economy, however, it is percieved as the largest. What is the economy? The economy is good or bad depending on peoples faith in it, I'm sure you would agree with that.
    And the market is the perfect reflection of that. It's faith driven. It's a faith driven indicator of an economy based on faith....along with some real hard cash of course. I get the feel that you underestimate the indicative force of the stock market. I may be wrong.

    You mention that investment capitol is out there but not being let go of and you blame that on trickle down economics? You say there are not investing right now because the return is poor?.....first of all, thats not accurate. They are investing, in REAL ESTATE. Don't you think that the money would logically start going back into the market once gains taxes are cut? If the gains tax is cut and the money goes back to the market and out of real estate, the rate on the 20 year bond (which controls mortgage rates) as well as interest rates start to climb again. The rates start to climb, and there is no gains tax, guess where the money stays? The economy is not the place to invest right now because the returns are not as high or safe as real estate.

    You say that in a nutshell, bush's plan is addressing the wrong problem. Making investment capital available when consumer confidence is the real problem. My thinking says that the latter follows the former. We think WAY differently on economics.
    sheepa latta peepah dabba looka foh a moopy

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  9. #9
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    I don't think money will flow into the stock market simply because dividend taxes are cut. How many companies pay substantial dividends anymore? Money will flow back into the stock market when corporations begin to perform better.

    You agree with me that there isn't a lack of investment capital, correct? Tax cuts that benefit the wealthy simply provide more investment capital. That's not solving the right problem.

    I don't think people base their purchasing decisions on the performance of the stock market. People buy and spend because of their own individual situation. Not too many people make their living off of their investments. I think most of them are like me. I check my portfolio each day and scowl or wince, but that's money set aside for the long-term. I'm not expecting any immediate returns or requiring them for my daily existence. Does the stock market's performance dictate your spending habits, or does your personal outlook for the future? Unless you're a day trader, they're not the same thing.

    Tax cuts help an economy that needs lubrication. Right now there's plenty of money out there being invested, just not in the stock market. How do you fix the market? Find a way to get the corporations to perform better. Consumer spending (confidence) is the only real way to make a near-term impact. If people aren't spending, companies aren't creating new jobs.

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    Donor

    I forgot to mention that at this point, I'm not sure anything is necessary to fix the economy. Meaning that a stimulus is too late in the cycle to prevent the problem, and too little to fix it. Unemployment rates here in MN are around 4%, which isn't too far off of where they should be. I know nation-wide it's closer to 6%, but if I remember the number of first-time filers was reduced last month. I think the business cycle will pick up this year, with or without any stimulus. In some ways a late stimulus can be more harmful than helpful, as it's really just deficeit spending.

    I forget who it was in Congress, but they were saying they oppose continuing tax cuts so long as we're operating in the red. That makes sense to me. We've got a lot of things that will need to be payed for in the next year, and the more money the government uses the less blood they'll have to shed.

  11. #11
    Eye suffacozza YEWW! Goo's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 05:34 PM
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    An interesting thing the government here tried was a 'first home owners scheme'. the basis was if you were looking at purchasing your FIRST home, then the government would chip in a one-off $14000 grant (it started at 7 but was doubled). This would help cover the cost of the loan deposit and got a lot of people buying in.

    The kick on effect of that was to stimulate the housing markets, as well as the building and banking sectors. This trickled into increased retail spending etc etc.

    In the end it worked VERY well as the subsequent effects helped us ride out the expected gloomy economic forcasts that were predicted for the past 3 or 4 years. the schemes ended for now but will no doubt be revived again in future. seemed to work a lot better than a one off tax cut which people blow on whatever. Instead of ploughing money into peoples pockets to be spent on anything, the moneys directed at a part of the economy that revs up many other areas.

    [ January 09, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Goo ]
    A little zen....... Headed your way.......

  12. #12
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by MikeL:
    I don't think money will flow into the stock market simply because dividend taxes are cut.
    I think youre nuts.

    How many companies pay substantial dividends anymore?
    plenty. Whats substantial? There are risks, but even an average return of 10% is better than a savings account or any real estate (most) investment. The market is the number one most potentially lucrative place to play your money.

    Money will flow back into the stock market when corporations begin to perform better.
    This is our biggest difference I think. You don't agree with the concept that more money being poured in to business will be a result of a capitol gains cut. I can see where that thinking can bring you to this conclusion without using the ending of "due to the gains tax decrease that freed up the purse strings of investors by providing an opportunity for higher returns tax free."....at the end of that quoted sentence.

    You agree with me that there isn't a lack of investment capital, correct?
    Yes, absolutely.

    Tax cuts that benefit the wealthy simply provide more investment capital. That's not solving the right problem.
    I don't understand.

    I don't think people base their purchasing decisions on the performance of the stock market.
    No, peoples purchasing habits are based off of the amount of money their personal situation allows them to spend. I think the markets performance (not on its own but in conjunction with other factors) is one thing that can open up opportunities for individuals personal situations to expand and have forward momentum in conjunction with the markets growth. The market growing is indicative of business growth. Business growth provides more opportunities for jobs= More jobs available= Less unemployment= More people with money to spend= More money being spent= businesses gaining/prospering= more expansion= more jobs= starts to become more of an employee's market rather than employER's= starting wages increase due to competition to get positions filled= more opportunities for you and me= more money in my personal situation to spend.

    Tax cuts help an economy that needs lubrication. Right now there's plenty of money out there being invested, just not in the stock market. How do you fix the market? Find a way to get the corporations to perform better.
    see above formula.
    sheepa latta peepah dabba looka foh a moopy

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  13. #13
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by MikeL:
    I forgot to mention that at this point, I'm not sure anything is necessary to fix the economy. Meaning that a stimulus is too late in the cycle to prevent the problem, and too little to fix it. Unemployment rates here in MN are around 4%, which isn't too far off of where they should be. I know nation-wide it's closer to 6%, but if I remember the number of first-time filers was reduced last month. I think the business cycle will pick up this year, with or without any stimulus. In some ways a late stimulus can be more harmful than helpful, as it's really just deficeit spending.

    I forget who it was in Congress, but they were saying they oppose continuing tax cuts so long as we're operating in the red. That makes sense to me. We've got a lot of things that will need to be payed for in the next year, and the more money the government uses the less blood they'll have to shed.
    I actually agree with you for the most part, however I would like to see some of my money come back to me.

    You know I'm not a big believer in governments role in the economy at all. It should run itself with or without government.
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  14. #14
    Damage your reputation seenbad's Avatar
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    11.30.17 @ 06:15 PM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by Goo:
    An interesting thing the government here tried was a 'first home owners scheme'. the basis was if you were looking at purchasing your FIRST home, then the government would chip in a one-off $14000 grant (it started at 7 but was doubled). This would help cover the cost of the loan deposit and got a lot of people buying in.

    The kick on effect of that was to stimulate the housing markets, as well as the building and banking sectors. This trickled into increased retail spending etc etc.

    In the end it worked VERY well as the subsequent effects helped us ride out the expected gloomy economic forcasts that were predicted for the past 3 or 4 years. the schemes ended for now but will no doubt be revived again in future. seemed to work a lot better than a one off tax cut which people blow on whatever. Instead of ploughing money into peoples pockets to be spent on anything, the moneys directed at a part of the economy that revs up many other areas.
    Didn't it just drive the price of housing up in the long run though?
    sheepa latta peepah dabba looka foh a moopy

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  15. #15
    Eye suffacozza YEWW! Goo's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 05:34 PM
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    In Sydney that kinda happens anyway due to demand and geography - but yes. However people here seem to see that as a good thing as they are getting an investment return.

    It's a good point though that for every person getting a good investment return, there's someone else seeing the price of getting into a home getting that bit further out of reach. I guess you gotta weigh that up against the fact we had a pretty bulletproof economy through years many countries were struggling a bit, and figures pointed to it being due to the housing market surging

    [ January 09, 2003, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Goo ]
    A little zen....... Headed your way.......

 

 

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