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  1. #1
    Little Dreamer
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Okay, kind of rash you say? Well let me explain myself. This guy had such incredible promise in '92. He was this young intelligent clever guy who had a good amount of charisma. He was reaching out to minorities, making promises, etc... And what has he done in 8 years.

    1. Pretended to oppose Iraq (UN Weapons inspectors haven't been allowed in the country since '97 and Saddam is still in full control of his country and rich as ever)

    2. He has made promises about social security but has done nothing.

    3. His wife made a bogus attempt at a bogus health care plan only to go nowhere.

    4. He has gotten a blowjob from some fat chick and tried to cover up the scandel by starting some "war" on Kosovo. (Started the bombings during his impeachment trial. Even the newscasters were making little remarks about this "coinscedence" (sp.)

    5. He was impeached by the House and nearly by the Senate.

    6. He lied under oath and to the country

    7. He has been incredibly capricious in the Middle East, switching sides from Palestine to Israel and so forth. Now, he's making remarks to the affect that he is completely pro-Israel. Pretty tough to be a peace moderator when you've got a bias with one side only.

    8. Plus, he's put Hilary on this crazy ego trip in which she thinks that someone with no political experience and only a few months residency in NY can be the senator of New York.

    9. Finally, he has nothing to do with the economy. He's simply coasted by in a time of prosperity (kind of like Coolidge in the 1920s)while the businessmen and the stock brokers have boosted the economy. If anything, he's riding the wave started during Reagan and Bush's administrations.

    Clinton is America's great disappointment. He's wasted an invaluable opportunity, let loose Hilary on the political scene, and hob knobbed with a bunch of Hollywood phonies who are going to drop him the minute he leaves office.

    My message, VOTE FOR BUSH.

  2. #2
    No Bozo's
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    Don't even start man ... you'll have the peeps on the case! And you don't want that

  3. #3
    On Fire
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Vote for Bush and watch your taxes increase, educational programs disappear, more violence on the streets(pro NRA), and watch what little social security you would have when you retire disappear. The man is a scary person. Vote for an oil tycoon and watch our world go to the shits!!! He's running for president just to show his daddy that he actually aspired to do something with his life other than sitting back and watch his earnings increase in his oil franchise that his daddy started for him. I'd vote for Clinton in a heartbeat if he could run again!!

  4. #4
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    Wow... pretty unimpressive, Josh. You start out being complimentary towards Clinton, point out some of his mistakes (I love the way you mix fact and opinion), and finally endorse a canidate in a race in which Clinton is not participating in. What was your point?

    As for the title of your topic, that's not clear yet. History takes time to judge accurately and dispassionately. As time moves on, Nixon looks better and better. And before you decide to misunderstand what I mean, I'm not saying better in comparision to others. The facts sort themselves out, and our opinions on past Presidents change.

    As an aside, can we all sort of agree to keep the number of political threads down--at least for another month or so?

    [This message has been edited by MikeL (edited August 27, 2000 at 06:23 PM).]

  5. #5
    Little Dreamer
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    What has Clinton done that was so great?

    We could have had Bush as president these last eight years and the economy would still be great, the military would not have fallen into the state is in now. Funding is way down, the equipment is old and ill serviced, enlistment is way down, training conditions are incredibly poor, etc... This has been well documented in the press. Plus, Clinton has been giving China a bunch of our military secrets. In the near future, conflict with China could prove to be very costly.

    Clinton is a man riding prosperity. Meanwhile, society hasn't exactly gotten better in the last 8 years. In his speech, he said hate crimes and terrorism are way down. Meanwhile, the number of church and synagogue bombings are way up and school shootings are the norm. And rap is the #1 music in America. (Doesn't say much) If this country's economy wasn't as successful as it was, this guy wouldn't have made it to a second term. Why so many people like this guy, I don't know.

  6. #6
    Ed6150
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    I like Clinton , he gets all the pussy
    Very cool guy also .

  7. #7
    Little Dreamer
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeL:
    Wow... pretty unimpressive, Josh. You start out being complimentary towards Clinton, point out some of his mistakes (I love the way you mix fact and opinion), and finally endorse a canidate in a race in which Clinton is not participating in. What was your point?

    As for the title of your topic, that's not clear yet.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What was my point? Clinton was a mediocre president who could have been great. My point. To start a debate. My point. America needs a president that can actually get something done legislatively. Since the Republican and Democratic platforms are incredibly similar, it's a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils.

    Seriously MikeL, why are you defending a joker like Clinton? Give me one good reason.

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    You really want to talk about a man who's not going to be in office much longer, don't you?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh:

    What has Clinton done that was so great?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ya got me. Here's what I do know: My life is better now than it was before Clinton. Now, I don't attribute much of that improvement to him. Clinton is a man that history didn't give a chance to be great. When things are good, what can we ask other than that they continue to be good?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We could have had Bush as president these last eight years<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Which Bush? Not Sr, as things don't work that way.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and the economy would still be great, the military would not have fallen into the state is in now. Funding is way down, the equipment is old and ill serviced, enlistment is way down, training conditions are incredibly poor, etc... This has been well documented in the press.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Now this I can speak to. I've got a bit of experience here, having been a member of the USAF from '95-'99. Funding isn't the problem. The funding is there, but the Joint Chiefs are pushing a lot of new weapons programs at the moment. You can spend money on R&D, or on people. Right now they're trying to do both.

    To say that the equipement is "ill serviced" does an injustice to the people who work hard to maintain it. The US military has some of the finest individuals you'll ever meet. Do you have a source to site as to the equipement being "ill serviced?" You'd better, if you're going to say it.

    As far as old goes, well, that's not entirely true. Some of it is, and some of it isn't. As things need to be replaced, they are. Take the M1A2 as an example. It's original design dates to the '70s, yet it's continued to evolve and get better. You'll not find a better MBT in production anywhere. Got a specific example of an old weapons system that needs to be replaced? Or do you not know what you're talking about?

    Enlistment is way down. The Army has lowered its standards in order to make its quotas, but the other services haven't yet. There's one reason for this: the economy. More and more people eligable to enlist are chosing to go to school or work, rather than consider the military. Want me to make it very easy to understand? Money! Hell, that's part of why I left. I was amply compensated for my time by Uncle Sam, but I can do better as a civillian. You don't serve to get rich, the payback is in the service itself. What have you done for society lately, other than the minimum, Josh?

    The training in the military is some of the finest I've experienced. I've got a decent background in training, so I know what I'm talking about. Training people is a large part of my current job, and it was a large part of my job in the Air Force. I spent approxiamately 9 months of my 4 year enlistment in formal training. More informal training was continous through-out my 4 years. We'd spend months training new arrivals to my duty station (this was after their formal training) before allowing them to work on their own. Training is one thing the military does damn well. But I don't suppose your newspaper told you this, eh?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Meanwhile, the number of church and synagogue bombings are way up and school shootings are the norm. And rap is the #1 music in America.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Church and synagogue bombings are up? Come on man, give me the numbers. If you can... School shootings aren't the norm, but they sure as hell are troubling. Perhaps we need to do something about handguns in our society? Kids have always been aggressive towards each other. Hand guns are the new part of that equation. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Maybe that's why Clinton has been trying to push gun control legislation? Ask yourself why Congress isn't so enthusiastic. The honest answer is dishonest money from the NRA. I'm not sure what rap music has to do with the price of coffee in Japan, but you must feel it's important.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If this country's economy wasn't as successful as it was, this guy wouldn't have made it to a second term. Why so many people like this guy, I don't know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Damn straight about the second term. That's a good part of why Bush never got his second term. The economy matters. I don't always like people, but if they do their job well how can I complain? People whine too much.

    Are you going to answer my questions, Josh, or are you making it up as you go?


    [This message has been edited by MikeL (edited August 27, 2000 at 07:18 PM).]

  9. #9
    Little Dreamer
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Okay, so I was wrong about the funding. But my cousin and her husband have been in the military (She left the service as a captain. He trains recruits in Kentucky and is also a captain) for nearly ten years. Plus, I have another cousin who just enlisted in the army a year ago. All three confirm that the military is on a decline.

    Plus, you seem to like to give your own interpretations of statements whose intentions you are unaware of. I was not criticizing military personel or military designs. Nor was I stating that I had wished Bush was in office for the past eight years. Bush Sr. could not have run for a third term. My point was that Joe Shmo could have been in office with a good economy and he would have been re-elected. There are plenty of people out there who pay very little attention to politics and vote based upon the state of the economy and a candidates' charisma rather than real issues (which pertain to the country and are within the president's control)

    And by the way, in regards to school shootings and bombings, my point was they have become far more frequent. Fifteen years ago, a school shooting would have been unthinkable. Today, it's very real.

    MikeL, I hoped I've answered your inquiry. Now I'd like you to answer my question which I directed towards you in my previous reply. Why (besides something such as the economy, which is beyond the president's control) would one vote for Clinton? And how can you deny that Clinton, a man of great promise, squandered his two terms in office? And by the way, here are some facts (not opinions) that prove my thesis. Clinton was a mediocre president.

    1. Pretended to oppose Iraq (Weapons inspectors are banned from Iraq and Saddam is still in power)
    2. He was done nothing for social security. (Englighten me. What has he done?)
    3. He's allowed China to acquire several military secrets.
    4. He has been extremely biased as a peace moderator in the Middle East. (This is backed up in print i.e. NY Times. Clinton said he would like to set up a U.S./ Israeli embassy in Jerusalem, thus implying that he is completely Pro-Israel just to get his wife votes in NY. Not just my opinion. It seems the NY Times staff agrees with me there)
    5. He has allowed the military to decline (backed in press and from personal accounts form relatives)
    6. He's been involved in numerous scandles i.e. Lewinsky, Campaign finance for his '96 campaign, (Good old Al Bore did a little fundraising of his own at a Buddhist temple), he lied under oath and to the country.

    7. The businessmen and stock brokers have made the economy what it is, not Clinton. (source: NY Times, Chicago Tribune, CNN, etc...)Also see Down in Flames reply in Bush vs. Gore forum.

    What a great president. But don't worry MikeL. The people of the 20s thought Coolidge was a great president too. The economy was booming. Today, he is what is called an average president. Such an outlook for good old Bubba is a best case scenerio.

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh:
    I was not criticizing military personel or military designs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmm... "Equipment is old and ill serviced" Just what were you criticizing by saying that? If not the people and the equipment, why did you say it at all?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And by the way, in regards to school shootings and bombings, my point was they have become far more frequent. Fifteen years ago, a school shooting would have been unthinkable. Today, it's very real.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You'd said that church bombings are more frequent. I still want you to back that up. I don't think you can site a credible source. And yes, fifteen years ago school shootings were unthinkable. We need to solve this problem somehow, and make schools safe for kids.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>MikeL, I hoped I've answered your inquiry. Now I'd like you to answer my question which I directed towards you in my previous reply. Why (besides something such as the economy, which is beyond the president's control) would one vote for Clinton? And how can you deny that Clinton, a man of great promise, squandered his two terms in office?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, you haven't. What have you done for society lately, other than bemoan those who their best to improve it? I would not vote for Clinton. He's not a part of this election... but let's not let that color our opinion on his electability, right?

    You say he's a man of great promise. I can give you that if you like. History doesn't always afford men of potential to fufill it. Great leaders are at least in part products of their time.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. Pretended to oppose Iraq (Weapons inspectors are banned from Iraq and Saddam is still in power)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We can thank George Bush for that reality. Saddam was left in power due to political reasons in '91. That's got nothing to do with Clinton. Would you approve of covert operations to dispose of him? Even though that would be against our own law? We have to let the Iraqi people make their own choice in that regard. They could dispose him if they wanted to make the sacrifice. As for the weapons inspectors, well, do you favor going to war over the issue?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. He was done nothing for social security. (Englighten me. What has he done?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not much. He's got the groundwork in place for improvements to be made. We've got a tidy budget surplus, and one would hope that it's used to ensure that SS will be around for quite some time. The Gray Panthers aren't going to let anyone touch "their" money, whether they need it or not. They have votes to, you know. GWB's plan to allow individual investments sort of ruins the whole idea of SS, doesn't it? I mean, they idea is no matter what you do you'll have some means of support from all of your hard work. It's a safety net for people who couldn't manage their own finances to provide a retirement for themselves.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. He's allowed China to acquire several military secrets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What specifically are you talking about here? China has been aggressive about accquiring new technology. You might not have noticed, but the administration recently nixed a sale of AEW platforms to Israel due to Israeli sales to China.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>4. He has been extremely biased as a peace moderator in the Middle East. (This is backed up in print i.e. NY Times. Clinton said he would like to set up a U.S./ Israeli embassy in Jerusalem, thus implying that he is completely Pro-Israel just to get his wife votes in NY. Not just my opinion. It seems the NY Times staff agrees with me there)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    See my last sentence above. His job isn't to create peace per se, but to ensure that whatever happens is in America's best interest. Israel has been a reasonably decent ally to the US, even if it is somewhat mercenary.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>5. He has allowed the military to decline (backed in press and from personal accounts form relatives)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It's shrunk, and it's mission is changing. People in the military love to complain, and change frightens them. Believe me, I know. We have the most professional, capable military on the planet. There's no credible conventional threat to our forces. Right now, enlisted personel have it better than they ever have. New housing and barracks is a major priority for all of the services. The quality of life is pretty damn good. Give me concrete examples of decline in capability.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>6. He's been involved in numerous scandles i.e. Lewinsky, Campaign finance for his '96 campaign, (Good old Al Bore did a little fundraising of his own at a Buddhist temple), he lied under oath and to the country.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This has all been settled, hasn't it? Since when is the President not a human being? I've done things in my life that I'm not proud of. Haven't you? C'mon everybody, let's throw some stones...

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>7. The businessmen and stock brokers have made the economy what it is, not Clinton. (source: NY Times, Chicago Tribune, CNN, etc...)Also see Down in Flames reply in Bush vs. Gore forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Let's not pay attention to the way the markets react to everything that Greenspan does... Yes, business drives the economy. It's cyclical. There will be a downturn. Some boom times are shorter than others. Can you complain about how the Fed has managed the money supply? That's a function of the Administration. Honestly, I like the idea of a President that puts competent people in positions of authority, or keeps those in place that are already there. What would you do in his place?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What a great president. But don't worry MikeL. The people of the 20s thought Coolidge was a great president too. The economy was booming. Today, he is what is called an average president. Such an outlook for good old Bubba is a best case scenerio. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm not proclaiming his greatness. I'm not trying to tear him down either. Appreciate the positives, and constructively contribute to solving the negatives. If more people did that than simply bitching, things would be better than they already are.

  11. #11
    Little Dreamer
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    Obviously, this is a no win situation for both camps. I have seen articles and news reports and heard first hand stories that you have not and vice versa.


    Therefore, I am requesting that we call this debate a draw.

  12. #12
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    I am voting for Bush

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh:

    Obviously, this is a no win situation for both camps. I have seen articles and news reports and heard first hand stories that you have not and vice versa.


    Therefore, I am requesting that we call this debate a draw.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We've had different experiences. All I'm asking for is hard numbers and sources for things that you haven't experienced first hand. There's an awful lot of bad information out there, and I'd like to know that we're dealing with real facts.

    If you don't want to continue, I'll understand.

  14. #14
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    06.07.06 @ 10:32 AM
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heatmiser:
    Vote for Bush and watch your taxes increase, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How will our taxes increase when Bush is proposing a $460 billion tax cut over the next five years?

    ------------------
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  15. #15
    Baluchitherium
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    09.15.15 @ 08:40 AM
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    let me say that if bush is in power (pro NRA), then we will see more school shootings. gun control=good.

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