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Thread: mega-dittos

  1. #1
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    i'm not usually a big fan of cut and paste, but i don't think i can formulate our foreign policy better than this -

    --------------------------
    So we're most likely going to send American troops into Iraq to kill and be killed--because Iraq might have weapons of mass destruction.

    But as for North Korea:

    "Answering questions on his way into the only coffee shop in this one-stoplight town near his ranch, Mr. Bush issued no demands that North Korea halt the nuclear programs it has threatened to restart, and he did not mentioned the ouster today of the international inspectors who have monitored activity at the country's primary nuclear site.

    'I believe this is not a military showdown, this is a diplomatic showdown,' the president said, on his way to get a cheeseburger and to chat with his neighbors here."

    If we know the country has weapons of mass destruction, or at least will within months, and yet diplomacy is still an option--well, it sure makes the rationales for war with Iraq look even thinner. It's almost enough to make you think that they're not being entirely honest with us about their motives for this thing (cough cough world's secondlargestprovenoilreserves cough cough).

    I've seen it suggested around the blogosphere that cheap oil is actually a perfectly acceptable reason for war, or at least a happy byproduct to be embraced. Tell it to the families of the servicemen and women who don't make it home.
    -----------------------------------

    taken from tom tomorrow's sight - thismodernworld.com he runs a nice little blog and is usually very good at cutting through bullshit, or in defference to others here, what some of us would perceive to be bullshit.

    [ January 01, 2003, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Ikeda ]

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    12.18.17 @ 09:14 AM
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    that's something mikeL touched on some time ago.

    the stance we have with iraq right now; do we become the "police" of the world when something like this happens? do we fight everyone who creates nuclear weapons outside the US, canada, russia, china, france, and britain? does canada have nukes? shit i don't even know.

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  3. #3
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Originally posted by Axxman300:
    To compare them with Iraq is flat out stupid. Iraq, under Saddam, will not negotiate in good faith with anybody.
    And North Korea has a history of negotiating in good faith? Right. If they did, we'd not be having this discussion. Unlike you, I don't put Kim Jong Il on any sort of pedestal, or think he's any less of a thug than Saddam. He just returned some Japanese citizens that had been kidnapped by his country decades ago. He's certainly an honorable and trustworthy individual, eh?

    It seems to me that one of the reasons we aren't so eager to get militarily involved with North Korea is that we know it'd a bloodbath. Consider this: roughly 300 Americans died in the Gulf War, while 54,246 died during the Korean Conflict. Those wars took place in different times and under different circumstances, but it's something to think about. I'm pretty sure the administration is thinking about it.

    Also, the planning process for Iraq is probably a year or so ahead of anything involving North Korea. I don't just mean military plans, but political plans as well. It's taken us some time to get the international community in line with our attitude towards Iraq. There'd be little support in South Korea right now if we wanted to light their peninsula on fire.

    Militarily, I don't think we could undertake both operations at once. We'd be stretched very thin, and that sort of thing can be... problematic. There's no upside in putting military pressure on North Korea right now. They know we're occupied with Iraq, and threatening them with force can only force them to accelerate their weapons program.

    My opinion is that we're in a pickle. The North Koreans have taken advantage of our preoccupation with Iraq, and will use the time it gives them to make a few bombs. Once they have them, we won't do anything other than negotiate. It's an insurance policy for them. It's unfortunate that we can't stop them.

  4. #4
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    In the Iran/Iraq war we helped Iraq because the Soviets were helping Iraq and we wanted to stick it to Iran any way we could. Those were the rules in the cold war and it put us in bed with some really awful people. We sold them some weapons and allowed US companies to sell dual use pharmacuticals such as the Anthrax virus to the Iraq health ministry. Anthrax is common in Norhtern Iraq so it was actually a humanitarian gesture on our part. In Desert Storm we faced off against Russian Tanks, Chinese APC's, French Mirage fighter jets and Russian Migs.

    If you recall, the U.S.S. Stark was hit by a French made Exocette missle fired from a French built Mirage. This was right in the middle of the Iran/Iraq war.

    Then there are the Germans, who sold all kinds of dual use equipment and also designed and built many of their more sophisticated underground bunkers. All of these countries contributed to the monster that Iraq has now become. Most of them continue to do so. Hell, Dick Cheney's Haliburton helped Iraq's oil get back on line, oil that the U.S. is the sole buyer so that Iraq can use the money for humanitarian needs but doesn't. Yet we are the bad guys. Everyone is whining because we are threatening to remove a facist dictator and nobody is asking those Europian countries why they are so comfortable him staying. It's like the problems we had going after Serbia, the leftists in Europe have quietly embraced facism because it tends to be anti-Amarican. That is the root issue, the U.S. and the West against fascism. In the cold war both side did what they had to do to win and neither the U.S or the U.S.S.R walks away clean.

    As far as Iraq backing Hamas, they and Iran both have supplied money and training over the years. This past year Iraq supplied help covertly through Lebanon and overtly with the paying of $5000 to the families of suicide bombers. Iraq used the Palestinians to sway Arab opinion against the U.S. and our hunt for Al Caida. You can track the escalation in bombings to our progress in Afghanistan. The Palestinians had a deal on the table in 2000 that would have given them back 95% of the West Bank and Arrafat balked at the last moment. Now he is facing Sharon, who is a major asshole and plays by the oldschool Isaeli playbook. He asked for it. My friends in Israel want to pull out of the West Bank and put up a wall. Any Jewish settlers who stay on the other side would be on their own.
    That may be a reality in some form within the next five years depending on a number of factors chief of them, unfortunately, is our war on terror and whatever we do in Iraq.

    We didn't arm Iraq, at least not in the way that you imply. At the time I approved because Iran was the bigger evil and anybody who wanted to fuck them over was worth supporting. Our mistake was to under estimate Saddam. That's all and it's not the first time either and won't be the last. (remember our man in Cuba-Castro?) The fact is that the U.S. has to make some really shitty deals to advance our foriegn policy. Take Russia, because they are helping us in the War On Terror we're turning a blind eye to the rotten things that they are doing to win their war in Chechnia. Maybe that makes us hypocrites but in this case it's the smart move. It's better to have the Russians with us than sitting on the sidelines or worse-working against us.

    That's the real world and it was like that before there was a United States of America and will continue to be so for a very long time to come.
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  5. #5
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    02.27.07 @ 04:58 AM
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    Thats a reasonably fair, well balanced argument, acknowledging both negative and positive aspects of US foreign policy. I can respect that.

    It just feels sometimes that Bush is such a warmonger.....its hard to stay objective.

    It is indeed a shitty world when we have to make friends of people we wouldn't normally want to make friends with in order to combat a more insidious foe.
    All the best.

  6. #6
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    09.04.17 @ 05:32 AM
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    Originally posted by kenny5150:


    It just feels sometimes that Bush is such a warmonger.....its hard to stay objective.

    What?

    How the fuck is Bush a warmonger?

    Let me remind you that over 3,000 people were killed on 11 Sept. 01. Then we took care of business in Afghanistan. Iraq supports terrorists. We will kill/destroy any and all terrorist we can. Period. End of story.

    Your attitude about Saddam/Iraq situation is the same attitude that Western Europe and the U.S.A. took when Germany invaded Poland. "Maybe, if we ignore them, they will just go away." This is not called "turn the other cheek" technique This is most commonly known as being a "PUSSY."

    Listen if you're a passsivist then shut yer pie-hole! Anybody who is a passivist (Notice I didn't say someone who wants peace - everybody wants peace, but you have to work for it to achieve it. Sitting on your ass and being complacement just doesn't cut it) has obviously a mental disorder and does not live in the real world. Plus coming here and arguing about this (and any other for that matter) topic is in direct violation of being a true passivist. Passivist don't argue or protest; they just sit on their thumbs and pray somebody else will protect them. You sound more like an anti-American than a true passivist. And in that case, you can suck my red, white, and blue cock, while you sit under the umbrella of protection that is the U.S.A.!

    Why don't you worry about your country's own actions before running your gob. Or did you forget about East Timor or your own country's participation in the War in Afghanistan? Hypocrite.

    [ January 02, 2003, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Van Gully ]
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  7. #7
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    12.18.17 @ 06:55 AM
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    Well, that was an interesting rebuttal.
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    12.18.17 @ 06:55 AM
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    [quote]Originally posted by MikeL:
    He's certainly an honorable and trustworthy individual, eh?
    Didn't realize you were Canadian, Mike. Eh?
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    05.31.14 @ 08:17 PM
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    North Korea is just yanking our chain. We cut off food-aide and they want it back plus more. No suprise here. There are stratigies to play in this situation which you saw today with Russia telling N. Korea to cool it. You will see China do the same soon. N. Korea will make an offer, we will make a counter offer and agree on something and get on with life.

    They've been pulling shit like this for years. Nothing new. To compare them with Iraq is flat out stupid. Iraq, under Saddam, will not negotiate in good faith with anybody. We don't have to negotiate with Iraq when we are still waiting for them to live up to the many agreements that they've ignored. Saddam is a thug and must be treated as such. The pressure we;ve put on Iraq has already paid off, the U.N has it's inspectors back in country and the suicide bombings in Israel- which Iraq financed and helped engineer- have all but stopped. Saddam and his lackies are already making plans to flee the country which means the war will be short. If there is a war.
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  10. #10
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    02.27.07 @ 04:58 AM
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    Is there any proof that Iraq helped finance and engineer suicide bombings in Israel?
    Dont they just have the teeniest bit to do with Israeli occupation of the west bank?? (which the US helped engineer)

    Axxman, what do you think when you see film of Rumsfeld all cosy and snuggly with saddam in the 80's? What do you think about the US arming Iraq in its war with Iran? Dont those things strike you as even mildly hypocritical?? Or do you choose not to think about it......

    I must point out that there is no justification imaginable for suicide bombings, or terror attacks at all. Full stop. But US has poked a stick into too many wasps nests over the years - its not even the fault of the current administration, they just have to deal with it......and I dont think George Jnr. is the man to do so.

 

 

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