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  1. #1
    Hot For Teacher
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    03.02.12 @ 08:44 AM
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    Now i know this is a tense argument here, but i am merely giving a perspective, but i can see why both sides have their truths. Just sharing and offering for discussion.
    Would we call the Rolling Stones the Rolling Stones without Mick Jagger?
    Would we call Aerosmtih Aerosmtih if Tyler left the band?
    I know many will bring up ACDC. But to many hardcore fans, ACDC is the band with Scott.
    Van Halen changed when Roth left. That is a testament to his influence.
    By simply stating he is replacable, you undermine what he gave to VH. I read somewhere that Roth was responsible for the Chorus of Panama, that is just one example. What is the problem in Calling the roth years "Van Halen", and the hagar years something else? By me doing so, it doesnt mean i am saying the roth years were better. just distinguishing their differences. By calling the Hagar years Van Halen, you by default have to call the Gary years Van Halen, which was just as different compared to the previous eras. That clearly shows that with every lead singer change, the band's direction also changes. So when someone says it doesnt matter who sings, i have to respectfully disagree. I realize we all have our own beliefs on this, but i would like to debate this respectfully, to get all of your points.
    Only adventures that I regret are the ones I missed - DLR

  2. #2
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Good post. I respect what you're trying to do, and I hope people share that respect by responding thoughtfully.

    Here's the way I look at it:

    VH clearly changed when Hagar and Cherone took over vocals, but the end product was still heavily derivative of Roth VH. The VH sound evolved from the first album to 1984, and that direction continued from 5150 through Balance, and leaped (forwards or backwards, who's to say?) again when VHIII came out.

    Honestly, I think VH went pop with Roth on 1984 and just continued that trend for the remainder of their albums. That momentum had already started before Roth left. And Roth's solo stuff (initially) was very pop. California Girls was lots of things, but it wasn't heavy like his earlier VH.

    So, to summarize:

    If VH as a collective band had been heading down a road towards a pop sound, and that direction continued over the course of three singers, I think you can call all three incarnations "Van Halen" and not disrespect anyone.

    I mean, people consider themselves fans of "early Metallica" or "late Metallica", and the sound changed without a high profile departure like Roth (until recently... didn't their bassist leave?).

    People consider themselves fans of "early Aersomith" or "late Aerosmith", but again the sound changed without a lineup change.

    It's okay to only like a portion of a band's work, and you don't have to rename the band when it hits different eras.
    DtK<br /><br /><i>"<b>Do</b> something."</i>

  3. #3
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    03.02.12 @ 08:44 AM
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    DannytheKid - hreat response. Like, i said, i can understand both sides, but just decided to share this for discussion. I like your point about how Vh went pop with 1984. I agree, but i am not so sure this would have continued had Roth stayed. That in itself is a debate. Consider Roth's Eat Em and Smile. Many considered that to be the true follow up Vh album, since it was harder then 5150. So i sometimes wonder if Vh would have gone as pop as they did with Hagar had Roth stayed.
    Only adventures that I regret are the ones I missed - DLR

  4. #4
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
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    Donor

    For me, it's all Van Halen. If the album cover says Van Halen, it's Van Halen. That doesn't mean that everything is as good as everything else, and I break the music down in terms of eras as well.

    I've asked this before, but why don't I see people on here coming up with clever new names for other groups, like post-Killers Iron Maiden? And I don't buy the instant arguement that it was with Bruce Dickinson that they made their mark. While I believe they were a better band with Bruce, the fact remains that they were conceived and got signed with Paul DiAnno on vocals, so why don't we call the second version Iron Dickinson? Even when Bruce left and Blaze Bailey joined, I still considered it to be Iron Maiden even though I had absolutely zero interest in what they put out.

    Of course VH sounded different once Dave left, and that is partly a testament to Dave's importance to the original VH. But Dave chose to leave and Eddie is the heart and soul of the song writing of Van Halen (for better or for worse). Therefore, I have no problem that they've continued to use the Van Halen name.

    And why doesn't anyone have a problem with the fact that Dave is touring with the DLR Band, when the members ARE NOT the same members who recorded the DLR Band album? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

  5. #5
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
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    Donor

    I think I'll send this over to the Opinions Forum. It's a familiar topic, but the intelligent manner of the original post has me hoping it'll be better than a typical Sam vs. Dave debate.

    Keep it going!!!! [img]smilies/thumb.gif[/img]

  6. #6
    Hot For Teacher
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    03.02.12 @ 08:44 AM
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    Glenn - also good response. It may say Van Halen on the cover, but that doesnt necessarily make it the essence of what Van Halen is. And if Eddie just wrote an album with neither dave, sammy, gary, mike, or alex, just an instrumental album, would that be VH? I dont think as many people would agree that it is. I wrote this post mainly because i didnt agree with those who said the singer doesnt matter. then you get into even more debates "is it vh without mikey?" or "is it vh without alex?".
    Only adventures that I regret are the ones I missed - DLR

  7. #7
    On Fire lawchick's Avatar
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    01.24.08 @ 09:30 AM
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    Let's face it. As far as Ed and Alex are concerned, the singer's identity is pretty superfluous. Van Halen exists because THEY exist. Eddie and Alex are at the core of the VH universe. Everybody else orbits around them. I think this family aspect to their identity cannot be underestimated and ultimately defines Van Halen.

    For me, it's always been Eddie and his pals. That's what Van Halen is.

  8. #8
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
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    Donor

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edeble Ed:
    It may say Van Halen on the cover, but that doesnt necessarily make it the essence of what Van Halen is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But who gets to decide the definition of 'the essence of what Van Halen is'? Every Van Halen album (my definition for the purpose of this, meaning all 11 studio albums) has guitar, guitar solos, bass guitar, drums and vocals. The keyboard is present in albums which feature all three singers. It could be argued that the essence of Van Halen is the interplay of those instruments. Granted one of those instruments is the vocals, and that isn't consistent over the course of those 11 albums.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And if Eddie just wrote an album with neither dave, sammy, gary, mike, or alex, just an instrumental album, would that be VH?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I see your point. For me, if Eddie was to release an album that had zero input from any of the others, including recording, it should be titled Edward Van Halen to distinguish itself from the work of Van Halen.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wrote this post mainly because i didnt agree with those who said the singer doesnt matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I totally agree. Though I support VH's decision to keep the name, I don't think you can ever discount Dave's importance to the initial rise of the band. He was integral, and I would argue that without Dave, we'd never have heard of Van Halen on any large scale.

  9. #9
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.14.17 @ 06:29 PM
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    Let me just throw my wrench in this thing by saying you could probably argue that Van Halen started down the path to popdom with Diver Down!

  10. #10
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    To me the stamp (name) on the cd cover is what it is. I think of Van Halen as just that, Van Halen. Who's to say that VHIII in one form or another wouldn't have come out with any of the 3 singers? The music comes from Eddie. I don't think anyone can disprove the input/impact of either singer on the band, good or bad. But no matter what any band is going to evolve, and it is not always going to please everyone. Metallica I think is a good example. I was never really a fan until the Black Album, and the Load album I loved. I remember the 'hardcore' fans saying they sold out with the Black Album. To me from that period on they grew as a band, and they grew up. Sold out? I think that depends on your own perspective, what really counts is if YOU like the music.

    David Lee Roth was a founding member, and his impact and influence will always be there as long as Eddie is if that makes sence. I found with the Hagar albums the music and band matured, wasn't all about 'I'm gonna f@#$ your girlfriend' which I though was a welcome change. Were not 20yrs old forever, gotta grow up sometime.

    If it says Van Halen on the cover that's what it is, may not be something you like, but it is Van Halen

    Great topic...wait till FORD gets a hold of this one. I'll be checking in just to see what he has to say [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
    Life is something that happens when your planning something else.

  11. #11
    Hot For Teacher
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    03.02.12 @ 08:44 AM
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    Zadian - i can see your point. I will give you an example. If Vh with Roth released an album that i hated, i would be a hypocrite if i said that "its not Vh", simply cuz i dont like it. but actually thats probably the core of this argument. when i talk about the essence of what van halen is, that is subjective to what i prefer.

    That said...

    I cant agree with others about the singer being a non important matter. it certainly mattered with Gary, when that album bomed, probably in large part to fan backlash. I think under other circumstances Gary would have had a chance. He didnt and doesnt deserve the crap he gets.
    Only adventures that I regret are the ones I missed - DLR

  12. #12
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    03.02.12 @ 08:44 AM
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    Might I add that although i am partial to the DLR years, i have a ton of respect for Hagar. Only a few have been able to successfully become the lead singer of a band and maintain their level of success. But for me personally, Van Halen is and always will be Dave, Eddie, Mike, and Alex.

    Let me also give you this scenario;

    Suppose in 85, Roth left with Mike Anthony, and Alex and Eddie remained. Both groups made respective albums, and both groups call themselves Van Halen (bear with me on this one). But the one that eddie and alex make is very different then other previous VH releases. Lets say Roth and Mike release an album together that is hard rocking and very reminiscent of old vh? which is VH? I ask this to those who think VH is just eddie and alex.
    Only adventures that I regret are the ones I missed - DLR

  13. #13
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Roth needs a good band behind him to write good music, the only Album of his I liked was EASB record, but he had Vai with him. The rest I personally don't care for.

    If VHIII had DLR behind the mic I have a feeling that it still would have bombed as most of the music sucked, which is what it comes down too. DLR is just a showman, without the music behind it....well, his last few efforts prove the point...did they even reach VHIII sales levels?
    Life is something that happens when your planning something else.

  14. #14
    Hot For Teacher
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    03.02.12 @ 08:44 AM
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    In all honesty Zadian, I dont think Roth would allow an album like VHIII to come out with VH.
    Only adventures that I regret are the ones I missed - DLR

  15. #15
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    "Van Halen" the legal Warner Bros. name is Ed, Alex, Mike + singer. Van HALEN the rock n' roll live like there's no tomorrow ATTITUDE is Ed, Alex, Mike, and Dave. No exceptions.

 

 

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