Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23
  1. #1
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    With Hagar's recent release on an independent label struggling to sell 10,000 units, I think it's interesting to compare DLR and Sammy's careers at equal points in time (i.e. the period in time after they both left Van Halen):

    1st release after VH:

    DLR (Eat em and Smile)
    3 Singles - Multi-Platinum Status (Pre-Soundscan)
    Sam (Marching to Mars)
    3 Singles? - Sales of 344,991

    2nd release after VH:

    DLR (Skyscraper)
    1 Big Hit (Just Like Paradise) - Multi-Platinum Status (Pre-Soundscan)
    Sam (Red Voodoo)
    1 Big Hit (Mas Tequila) - Sales of 317,486

    3rd release after VH:

    DLR (ALAE) - Sales of 330,448
    No Major Hit
    Sam (1013) - Sales of 103,941
    No Major Hit

    4th release after VH:

    DLR (YFLM)- Sales of 61,782
    Minimal radio airplay
    Sam (Not for Sale) - Current sales of 6,000
    Minimal radio airplay

    Instead of comparing the strength of DLR and Sam's careers as they both sit here in 2002 (which is comparing apples to orange), this comparison shows the eerily similar downward spiral they've BOTH been on since leaving the mighty Van Halen machine. Based on sales, you can almost make a case that DLR did better after leaving the band than Sam did, and it took Sam 1 less release to reach independent label status than Dave. I won't make that argument because with the advent of file sharing and classic rock selling less and less, you would expect Sammy to sell less 5 years ago than Dave did in the early nineties.

    What's indisputable is how they both garnered less and less attention from radio after leaving the band, subsequently failing to generate hit singles (the sales kiss of death). I'm not posting this to show one being better than the other or to start a Dave vs. Sam war (although that's inevitable). It merely shows how both artists were/are unable to sustain consistent success after leaving VH, making them equally pathetic in my mind.

    Bring on Singer #4. Eddie call Jeff Keith.

    P.S. Sales stats taken from http://www.metal-sludge.com/SludgeScansJanuary00.htm Take 'em for what they're worth
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  2. #2
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.16.99
    Posts
    16,192
    Last Online

    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 8 Times in 1 Post


    Donor

    I think it's a little harsh to suggest that they are pathetic because of their inability to sustain record sales. Supposing that Dave had never left Van Halen, it only stands to reason that as they became more and more of a veteran band, and as musical trends shifted as they always do, their sales would have decreased. And the Sammy era VH album all showed a decrease in sales.

    Is that pathetic? Name me a band that has released over 8 studio albums and seen an increase in sales every time? I doubt that one exists.

    So given that the trend hits the huge bands, why would anyone expect the little guys to be immune? I just can't imagine anything Dave could have done that would have seen him continue to be a platinum artist through the 90's. He's made some moves that I don't agree with, but I can't say that those moves have affected his ability to sustain platinum sales. Does anyone really believe that ANY kind of album by Dave in 1994 would have been a big hit? I just wish he'd put out some new music, knowing full well that it isn't going to go gold. Who cares, put the art out there and live with it.

    And Sammy is a cult artist. Leaving Van Halen in his late 40's, it's hard to imagine him reviving a solo career that is going to see increased record sales each time out.

  3. #3
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Originally posted by Glenn:
    I think it's a little harsh to suggest that they are pathetic because of their inability to sustain record sales.
    I'm not saying they personally are pathetic as people. After all, I've never met either of them personally. I am saying their career performance is pathetic and it is. We make a lot of excuses for our favorite artists (changing tastes, technologies, etc.), but like it or not, they are the CEOs of their respective careers, both of which would be on the verge of going out of business in conventional industries.

    As far as pointing to bands who managed to sustain excellent sales throughout their recording careers, I would point to Led Zeppelin and the Beatles. Granted, they're both legendary bands, but isn't that how many of us view VH?

    As far as pointing to an artist who's left a hugely successful band and managed to sustain sales as a solo artist, it's an even rarer phenomenon. The only singer I can think of is Sting although I'm sure there's others.

    This topic is mainly intended at the people who view one or both of these singers as anything more than what they are, two middle-aged fading rock icons in the twilight of their careers. Take off the rose-colored glasses. Looking at them as anything more is hero worship and wishful thinking.
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  4. #4
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.16.99
    Posts
    16,192
    Last Online

    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 8 Times in 1 Post


    Donor

    I totally agree that the end result is ultimately in the hands of Dave and Sammy. For example, I lay the blame squarely at Sammy's feet that his new album isn't readily available to me in stores. Sammy's been around long enough that he should be on top of things like how his cd is going to be distributed.

    But having said that I don't think you can ignore certain factors, one of which is just the simple passage of time. As the audience of a rock artist grows up, I think it's just a given that members of that audience are going to fall away. Unless you can keep appealing to younger people on a consistent basis, your audience will diminish over time. People are much more likely to be hardcore about their music when they are younger.

    So while I put the blame on Dave for Dave's position, I would like to know what people think Dave could have/should have done with his 1994 release that would have sustained his late 80's sales level? And what could he have done with his 1998 release to regain his past sales level?

  5. #5
    Hang 'Em High MAX's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.10.02
    Age
    46
    Location
    RED SOX NATION, SLC CHAPTER
    Posts
    6,770
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hit the ground runnin'
    Last Online

    06.03.10 @ 11:18 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts


    Donor

    Hey Hemp, what is up? Guys it is kind of like this IMO- Back in the early to mid eighties when we were buying the new VH releases or DLR early solo, were we as record buyers interested in lets say for an example Roger Daltrey's latest solo effort? Not really and I don't think his solo records sold well outside of the hardcore Who fans. That's because it was some ten to twenty years after they were really big. It's the same scenerio with VH singers solo's at this point in time some ten to twenty years later. Do you see where I am going? Oh, and I don't even know if Roger had many solo albums. I just used him as an example of eras in time.
    EAT US AND SMILE!!!!

    "Please don't take my teddy bear... Please!!!" - diamondsgirl's Oscar nominated dramatic scene for best actress of 2007

    "and by Van Halen, I mean David Lee Roth" - diamondsgirl on Van Halen

  6. #6
    Romeo Delight Redhalen's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.14.02
    Age
    56
    Location
    Chicago, USA
    Posts
    117
    Favorite VH Album

    F.U.C.K.
    Favorite VH Song

    Best of Both Worlds
    Last Online

    03.03.11 @ 01:36 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Good point Max, and as far as Dave's dropoff, I would question the slide from from Skyscraper to ALAE, that was about 700,000 lost from one record to the next and if I'm wrong correct me, but that was just before Nirvana and grunge hit big. Sam's slide was due to no radio airplay and IMO Red Voodoo wasn't what people were looking for and hence the drop off in 10-13 sales. I think 10-13 was a more traditional Sammy release.
    It's good to be the King or at least know him.

  7. #7
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.16.99
    Posts
    16,192
    Last Online

    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 8 Times in 1 Post


    Donor

    Remember that Dave sold a hell of a lot of records off of being a media darling in the mid-80's. His timing was perfect to take advantage of the MTV age and his skill at it was undeniable.

    But there is a downside to that; that is that you are perceived as being a product of a certain era, and once that era is gone, the majority of people refuse to allow you to move on to the next era. Perception becomes reality. I think this quite obviously happened to Dave, and his recent tours have shown that he knows and accepts this.

    There always was a lot more to Dave than the spandex clad, pretty boy, party frontman, but he sold that so well (too well???) and so heavy during his relatively quick burst of mass MTV fame that it has been a weight around his neck ever since.

  8. #8
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Good points all around, but why do we feel compelled to make excuses for them in the first place? One of Dave's quotes that has always stuck in my mind was one he jokingly made around the time of EEAS where he said staying on top in the music industry was about having a cool haircut and the right pair of shoes and he was up to the challenge. Of course, this was typical Dave making light of the importance of image, but it shows they are as aware as we are of the whims of time and taste that can impact their careers.

    I like rock n roll, jazz, blues, etc. because unlike pop, dance, and rap genres, the artists tend to take the music more seriously which somewhat lessens the impact of trends and of course, results in better music (IMHO). Whether you like him or not, Sting's a good example of an artist who's done it right, consistently releasing quality music with stellar musicians, and knowing enough to tweak his production/image with current tastes. If Dave managed to release an album the quality of 1984 or Sammy the quality of F.U.C.K., there's no doubt in my mind it would find an audience. As big an audience as in their heyday? Doubtful, but quality has a way of being recognized. We can make all the excuses for them we want but DLR Band and Not for Sale is mediocre music from two men who can and should do better.

    To me, they're phoning it in at this point which is what makes them pathetic. They're like boxers who should've got out of the ring a couple fights ago. Now, if either of them were to rise up and smack me between the eyes with a killer release, I'd change my tune, but I'm not holding my breath.
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  9. #9
    Hang 'Em High MAX's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.10.02
    Age
    46
    Location
    RED SOX NATION, SLC CHAPTER
    Posts
    6,770
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hit the ground runnin'
    Last Online

    06.03.10 @ 11:18 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts


    Donor

    Great points guys, I must admit though Hagar is at least attempting to continue a musical career(I can't believe that I just said that being an anti Samite and all?). Although it is not successful to the masses but sorry folks but they are has-beens to the mainstream nowadays. That is just what happens. The Stones haven't had a major hit album in years. That is just Rock and Roll for you, if that genre even exists today?
    EAT US AND SMILE!!!!

    "Please don't take my teddy bear... Please!!!" - diamondsgirl's Oscar nominated dramatic scene for best actress of 2007

    "and by Van Halen, I mean David Lee Roth" - diamondsgirl on Van Halen

  10. #10
    Eye suffacozza YEWW! Goo's Avatar
    Join Date
    01.01.00
    Age
    46
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    12,866
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Me Wise Magic
    Last Online

    12.11.17 @ 05:34 PM
    Likes
    29
    Liked 65 Times in 36 Posts


    Premium Member
    Originally posted by Glenn:
    But he sold that so well (too well???) and so heavy during his relatively quick burst of mass MTV fame that it has been a weight around his neck ever since.
    Good point. Roths solo career started with such a flurry, he was ALWAYS gonna hit a point where his sales hit a more realsitic level. Instead of maintaining his poise as this happened though, it seems it kind of bought him unstuck. Which is a great pity, if Dave had stuck with straight out rock as he's always done it, as opposed to the 'grab bag' we saw in YFLM, I'm sure it would have done his sales a favor long term. By this stage of his career he could have been exploring blues/rock to help suit his aging voice, and that would have been pretty interesting.

    While I havent contributed ten cents to Hagars solo records, I think its probably worth noting that he has (in comparison to Roth) maintained a much steadier output, and managed to keep a core fan base pretty satisfied, while picking up the occasional hit on the way. Nowhere near as spectacular as early Roth sales, but a more realistic and maintainable base. Until now anyways LOL

    [ October 21, 2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Goo ]
    A little zen....... Headed your way.......

  11. #11
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.16.99
    Posts
    16,192
    Last Online

    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 8 Times in 1 Post


    Donor

    I don't feel like I'm making excuses for them, just looking at certain realities that exist as I see them. I've been heavily critical of Dave for his refusal to put out a new record and his reliance on the Van Halen material when he tours now. And I'm critical of Sammy releasing an album without having the smarts to make sure it's available at all the record stores that are within walking distance of my home. I live in Canada, so not having it available in stores means that if I order it online it's going to cost me upwards of $30 to buy Not For Sale. I would NEVER pay that much money for a Sammy Hagar cd.

    To me, there is no excuse for these things. What I perceive to be Dave's admission of his being trapped as an 80's thing is just downright sad. The fact that DLR Band sold 100,000 copies isn't one bit sad. What is wrong with that number? If Dave could make a living selling that number each time out, and touring small venues, I'd be proud as hell of him. I don't see the artistic point of trying to appeal to people in the live setting who haven't even heard Dave's name since around 1986.

    I don't deny that when Dave hits the stage he gives his all. Like anyone else, he's going to have highs and lows, but I believe that his mindset is to give his best. But I think he just looks silly wearing painted on spandex and allowing his art sit idle while he forgets everything that happened after 1986.

    There is quality material on all of Dave's solo projects, and his ability to write lyrics has never let him down. Wouldn't it be nice to hear the lyrical take of DLR in 2002, with him having another 4 years of experiences since his last lyrical effort? That's how I see that Dave is phoning it in now.

    Sorry for focusing on Dave, but I'm much more of a fan of him and feel more opinionated on him than Sammy.

  12. #12
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Originally posted by Glenn:
    So while I put the blame on Dave for Dave's position, I would like to know what people think Dave could have/should have done with his 1994 release that would have sustained his late 80's sales level? And what could he have done with his 1998 release to regain his past sales level?
    The damage was already done by 1998 by the previous releases, but I suggest there's a lot DLR could've done to improve the fortunes of YFLM, whose dismal performance got him dumped from his label (of course hindsight is always 20/20). Coming as it did in the height of grunge, Dave should've chosen a producer who could've channeled his lyricals and musical statements into a more viable release for the youth of the day. Nile Rodgers? Just one of the many mistakes made on that album. Another was a duet with Travis Tritt, an obvious sellout to try and tap into the Garth Brooks led hot country market of the time. Sentiments like Just a Gigolo and That's Life weren't what the Kurt generation wanted. To stay relevant, Dave should've chosen that time to enter his blue period. Put the lyrics from 'Your Breathin It' into another context with slammin guitars and heavy production and you see what I mean. He also would've been wise to remove his image from the equation all together, putting the focus squarely on the music to see if it would stand on its own merits.

    I remember the first single 'She's my Machine' getting a decent push from radio. The bottom line was that it stuck out like an 80's anachronism in the middle of the playlists of the time. If he would've came out with something heavy with some lyrical weight, I think a lot of young'uns might've felt the power of the original Atomic Punk. After all, the pop-punk thing was just starting to take off with Green Day and Offspring, a movement that's not that far removed from the attitude and simplicity of classic VH.
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  13. #13
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Originally posted by Glenn:
    I live in Canada, so not having it available in stores...
    Canadians have always had great taste

    By the way, on another thread there was some people extolling our Canadian comedic exports (John Candy, Leslie Neilsen, Michael J. Fox, etc.) Would like to point out that both Mike Myers and Jim Carrey are Canucks as well. Got to have a sense of humor when you're looking out your window and seeing two inches of snow on the ground as I am now

    Originally posted by Glenn:
    I would NEVER pay that much money for a Sammy Hagar cd.
    I would...if it would double as a remote car starter.

    Originally posted by Glenn:
    [QB]There is quality material on all of Dave's solo projects,QB]
    I used to think this as well. I don't anymore. The acid test? Put the best song on DLR Band on at your next party and see the reaction? You'll feel like you just whipped out your dick in front of your mother-in-law.

    Does popularity make something good? Not necessarity, but how many times have you been hanging with a bunch of people all grooving to the same song and you realize, damn this is a good song precisely because it reached a number of people on the same level. I haven't seen a Dave song have that effect on people since I saw an entire hall party singing along to the scat parts on 'Just a Gigolo.'
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  14. #14
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Hi OU812.

    On a separate note, I think we should both be more than a little concerned about those Chargers. Friggin' Schottenheimer, we couldn't beat him with the Chiefs, now we can't beat him in San Diego. Raiders lost Buchanon yesterday and Woodson's already out. Our two best corners on the IR. Secondary looks like swiss cheese right now and we gotta face a fairly potent Chiefs offense this weekend. Looks like we'll be seeing some shootouts in Raiderland. I'm worried.
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  15. #15
    On Fire
    Join Date
    09.09.00
    Location
    Cork, Ireland
    Posts
    364
    Favorite VH Album

    DLR Band!!!!!!
    Favorite VH Song

    Slam Dunk!!!!!!
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Originally posted by Crazy from the Hemp:

    DLR (ALAE) - Sales of 330,448
    ALAE was released before Soundscan came into play. And it was certified Gold by April '91. Sounscan came about during or after the summer of '91 - so ALAE is definetly near or past Platinum.

    As for what DLR could've done different in '94? - well he led with his face (one of his popular phrases), he knew straight-ahead classic Rock was WAY out-of-vogue, and he has a history of "left-hand turns, but he left it too late, the drugs bust in '93 didn't help (I remember a pic in Rolling Stone, with "Who says DLR can't get arrested?"), and when he came back in '94 with the jon bon jovi haircut, alarm bells started ringing - Dave was now following, not leading (or at least thats what the general public thought).

    With the benefit of hindsight, he should have made a comeback in '92 - Theatre's like Ozzy did in the recession-hit market of '91 (I bet Sharon saw how bad DLR's tour went that summer - so when No More Tears was released - he played large Theaters - by the end of the tour he was playing Arena'a with Black Sabbath supporting on his final two nights!)
    He should have hooked up with an accomplished guitarist - Sykes, Satriani, BEG Vai to come back, hung on to Pete Angelus and delivered a note-for-note VH-like album - like EEAS. In 1992, he would have got away with it, grunge was that big yet, and the biggest bands were GNR and Metallica - so the market was still wide open for him.

    I just think he left it too late - career suicide.

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Boxcar Racer's Pathetic Concert 11/27
    By Vince G. in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11.29.02, 09:37 AM
  2. What a pathetic joke!!!!!!!!!!
    By Ashe in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 110
    Last Post: 10.06.02, 01:20 PM
  3. What a pathetic joke!!!!!!!!!!
    By Ashe in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 09.16.02, 08:49 AM
  4. Pathetic
    By CPD in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11.09.01, 09:46 AM
  5. Aerosmith-Beyond Pathetic!!!!!!!!
    By Vic Vega_0609 in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01.29.01, 01:20 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •