Follow us on...
Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Watch us on YouTube
Register
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23
  1. #1
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    I was thinking of what Van Hager Round II might be like and inevitably started to think about the problems that led to their first breakup.

    It seemed from the dirty laundry aired by both Ed and Sam that Ed became more involved with the lyrics and this caused a great deal of friction between the two of them. Ed expressed that he hated the lyrics for "Amsterdam," there was the hole "Human Beings" lyric confrontation, and finally, he started bringing in outside lyricists like Glen Ballard.

    The explanation given at the time was that Ed got sober and started to take more control of the band. I suspect there was more to it than this. In fact, it could be any or all of the following:

    1) Balance was a decline in sales from the previous release and Ed was extremely concerned that the band was becoming less relevant in light of more serious lyrical themes generally being explored by the popular bands at the time. Less relevant could also be viewed in terms of less sales.

    2) Ed, who's always been viewed as a guitar genius, has always chafed at the lack of critical acclaim that the band has garnered because of their party image. By taking on more thoughtful lyrics, he hoped to position the band alongside the likes of Led Zep, Pink Floyd, the Stones, in the big picture. In essence, Ed got serious, and wanted to make Van Halen's version of 'Dark Side of the Moon.' Eventually he came to the conclusion that Sammy wasn't capable of doing that.

    3) Ed simply became a control freak. Once sober, he wanted to put his stamp on everything and that included the lyrics. At that point, he started to treat Sammy like an employee and not his collaborator.

    From some of Sammy's comments, it seems that he really threw up some resistance to lyrical input as he'd always been left to do this on his own. On one hand, you could accuse Hagar of being the control freak as he wasn't open to the idea of lyrical input, but on the other hand, the singer is the one who sings the tunes. Shouldn't he have the final say?

    I think it's interesting, especially if they reconvene, and especially in light of how much Hagar's lyrics are criticized in forums like this. Does Eddie care more about general public opinion than we might think?
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  2. #2
    no stinkin click! muffdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.27.02
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    7,761
    Favorite VH Album

    all
    Favorite VH Song

    strung out....
    Last Online

    02.28.14 @ 07:54 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts


    Premium Member

    Donor

    i know geddy lee says there's two levels ...it's how deep ya wanna get...you can have great music and play hard and kick everyones ass and you can also add something meaningful with the lyrics if ya think theres someone listening....it's just how deep ya wanns go....?something like that anyway.... [img]graemlins/wtf.gif[/img] maybe ed wanted to say something...instead of just 'i forgot the f--kin words"...he says he never understood what dave was sayin half the time or didn't care to know the lyrics....

  3. #3
    5150
    Join Date
    06.01.02
    Age
    45
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    660
    Favorite VH Album

    5150
    Favorite VH Song

    5150, Women In Love
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post


    Donor

    I think that everybody forgets that Ed had alot to do w/ the Roth Era lyrics. Also, what you said makes sense, but consider this: First, VH always seemed to release their albums a few years apart, especially during the Sammy era. Once they broke up we all heard conflicting stories as to "work ethic." It's my opinion that this was a cop out. I think there are so many variables involved w/ that split, that we'll never really know the truth. I mean give me a break, all of the sudden Ed wants to get right back in the studio? Sam's to blame b/c he wanted time off? It just doesn't make sense. With Dave, it was a clean split. As much as some of the trouble-makers on this board make it out to be, Dave left b/c Dave wanted to go onto other things (movie star, etc.). Any TRUE VH fan knows this.
    Simply put, the death of Ed Lefler, new management and a breakdown in overall friendship lead to the dissolution of Vh/ w/ Sam.
    As far as the subsequent efforts w/ Dave, it didn't work. It never will, period. Dave is Dave. Sam is Sam. The debate will continue, but we will all be the ones who get screwed in the end.
    WHAT IS UNDERSTOOD NEED NOT BE DISCUSSED!

  4. #4
    On Fire
    Join Date
    08.12.02
    Age
    51
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    399
    Favorite VH Album

    Van Halen 1
    Favorite VH Song

    Unchained
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Originally posted by aftershock5:
    As far as the subsequent efforts w/ Dave, it didn't work. It never will, period. Dave is Dave. Sam is Sam. The debate will continue, but we will all be the ones who get screwed in the end.
    Not sure how this is relevant to the thread. Not everything must devolve into the Dave vs. Sam argument. All indications are that Dave is now out of the picture for good and Sam is the front-runner for the band's next incarnation. That being the case, how will he and Ed resolve this issue (of fighting over lyrics) that they've both confirmed was a problem in interviews after the breakup?

    One thing that's interesting to note is the prevalent pessimism over the fact that the boys haven't released some plastic in 4+ years. To put it in proper perspective, there was a 3 1/2 year gap between the release of F.U.C.K. and Balance and the band was a cohesive unit with a viable contract at the time. Since they hit the big payday with 1984, this band has been very slow to release albums. Don't think that will change regardless of what the new direction is. Would be nice to see them do a dual release (ala the GnR Use Your Illusion thing), but I don't see a label in the world going for that at this point.
    "Some men are born to greatness, some women have greatness thrust up in them."<br /> <br />Diamond Dave

  5. #5
    Hang 'Em High Stuff No More's Avatar
    Join Date
    04.04.00
    Location
    Tropic of Capricorn
    Posts
    6,082
    Favorite VH Album

    5150
    Favorite VH Song

    Dreams
    Last Online

    01.08.05 @ 11:08 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    I think the lyrical issue comes from an overcompensation on Eddie's part. He had just decided to try being sober for a change and was probably just starting to understand that through all the years he spent drunk he wasn't in control of the band. When trying to regain control of his life, he went a little overboard and wanted to start dictating other aspects of Van Halen that he didn't traditionally have much say in. Sammy was used to free reign with his song lyrics and probably felt hurt and betrayed over Eddie's sudden desire to have someone else write them for a change. I imagine Sammy considers himself more than just a singer - he writes songs, he doesn't just sing what is handed to him.

    Things probably would have been fine if Eddie would have continued to be happy just controlling the riffs of the band.
    "Just once I'd like to do the right thing and not get punished for it."

  6. #6
    Hang 'Em High MAX's Avatar
    Join Date
    06.10.02
    Age
    46
    Location
    RED SOX NATION, SLC CHAPTER
    Posts
    6,770
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hit the ground runnin'
    Last Online

    06.03.10 @ 11:18 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts


    Donor

    Originally posted by aftershock5:
    I think that everybody forgets that Ed had alot to do w/ the Roth Era lyrics.

    I beg to differ on this point. Unless you can tell me to what you are referring. If you mean BOV1 sessions then I stand corrected. It is true that Ed, Glen Ballard and Roth all worked together on the lyrical treatment for the two new songs. There is no argument there, but going back to the early days Ed always claims that Dave came up with all of the words. Ed has said that he might have suggested on melodies, but not the lyrical treatment. Ed insisted that was Dave's territory. Ed has stated in the past how Dave blew him away by being able to squeeze words into parts of songs that Ed thought were impossible. I also have the video from '85 where Ed and Val both comment about how Dave's lyrical treatment of "Secrets" was exactly what Ed had hoped for. That being said, on to Sammy and Ed's lyrical meddling.
    In the interviews from Guitar World in 1998 Ed went into detail of how frustrated he was with Sam's lyrics. He said that he thought that if Sam were to continue in VH that he needed to work with outside people and that included lyrics. Sam was adimantly against it and did not wan't to do it and here we are. Ed claimed that once he "got sober" he started to care about lyrics. Whereas when he was drinking, he did not give a shit. The major breaking point was "Between Us Two" that is where Ed and Sam butted heads that led to the infamous phone conversation where they split. There, I'm finished. Sorry that it is so long.
    EAT US AND SMILE!!!!

    "Please don't take my teddy bear... Please!!!" - diamondsgirl's Oscar nominated dramatic scene for best actress of 2007

    "and by Van Halen, I mean David Lee Roth" - diamondsgirl on Van Halen

  7. #7
    Romeo Delight
    Join Date
    09.12.02
    Age
    49
    Location
    good ole\' USof A!
    Posts
    107
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hear about it Later
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Then again it could be just as simple as he was trying to make everyone around him realize that he is in total control of the band creatively. IN all of the interviews with Dave and Sam they both love to tell how they came up with the lyrics for their tenures with the band.

    From hearing this for the past 20 plus years, Ed decided that he was going to have total control of the band creatively. It is a known fact that once a person becomes a reformed alcoholic, they also try to gain control over anything else that they feel was not in their control before sobriety.

    Hence he decided to take lyrical control of the band in 1996 and forward.
    DDLR WEBMASTER<br /><a href="http://www.diamonddavidleeroth.com" target="_blank">www.diamonddavidleeroth.com</a><br /><br />Also check out <a href="http://www.rayluzier.com" target="_blank">www.rayluzier.com</a> for all DLR BAND updates

  8. #8
    Romeo Delight
    Join Date
    12.14.01
    Location
    NoCal
    Posts
    113
    Last Online

    02.29.12 @ 05:55 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Originally posted by Ou812max:
    Originally posted by aftershock5:
    I think that everybody forgets that Ed had alot to do w/ the Roth Era lyrics.

    I beg to differ on this point. Unless you can tell me to what you are referring. If you mean BOV1 sessions then I stand corrected. It is true that Ed, Glen Ballard and Roth all worked together on the lyrical treatment for the two new songs. There is no argument there, but going back to the early days Ed always claims that Dave came up with all of the words. Ed has said that he might have suggested on melodies, but not the lyrical treatment. Ed insisted that was Dave's territory. Ed has stated in the past how Dave blew him away by being able to squeeze words into parts of songs that Ed thought were impossible. I also have the video from '85 where Ed and Val both comment about how Dave's lyrical treatment of "Secrets" was exactly what Ed had hoped for. That being said, on to Sammy and Ed's lyrical meddling.
    In the interviews from Guitar World in 1998 Ed went into detail of how frustrated he was with Sam's lyrics. He said that he thought that if Sam were to continue in VH that he needed to work with outside people and that included lyrics. Sam was adimantly against it and did not wan't to do it and here we are. Ed claimed that once he "got sober" he started to care about lyrics. Whereas when he was drinking, he did not give a shit. The major breaking point was "Between Us Two" that is where Ed and Sam butted heads that led to the infamous phone conversation where they split. There, I'm finished. Sorry that it is so long.
    Glad you brought that up about Ed and the lyrics, I have also read interviews that say it was Dave's territory. Not only did he not have alot to do with the lyrics, he virtually had no input.

    As far as if Sam gets back in, I bet they learn from their mistakes, and the brothers let Sam do all the lyrics.

  9. #9
    Banned!
    Join Date
    09.20.02
    Age
    47
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    241
    Favorite VH Album

    their next one
    Favorite VH Song

    dance the night away
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    YEAH EDDIE!!! YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR NUT KICKIN ASS PLAYIN THE GUITAR, OR THE PIANO. lEAVE THE WORDS TO TO WORDMEN!!! that is my opinion.

  10. #10
    Romeo Delight
    Join Date
    09.21.02
    Age
    39
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    49
    Favorite VH Album

    Take \'yer pick
    Favorite VH Song

    Take \'yer pick
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Does Eddie care more about general public opinion than we might think? No. If he did, lyrical importance would certainly take a back seat to public relations.

    In my opinion, if Ed was so against the lyrics to Amsterdam, the song should have been vetoed. If not taken off the album, then at least not played live... if it irritated Ed so much. "Wham Bam, Oh Amsterdam," is just Sammy's take on the town. If Ed were from Russia and Sammy sang "Lead Fred, where can I get some bread," or "Can't find the keys to the locka, where be some of that there vodka," then I could see Ed being upset.

    Ed should get credit for being a lyrical genius himself. "Hey you, wake up, get yourself together." Truly mesmerizing.
    "My heroes have always been David Lee Roth, Archie Bunker, and anyone who has ever agreed with me." - Me

  11. #11
    Atomic Punk Wolfman's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.31.00
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    8,119
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hear About It Later, Atomic Pu
    Last Online

    07.20.17 @ 03:43 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Maybe it's just because I'm on the older end of the VH fanbase, but I couldn't agree more with Ed about how stupid "Amsterdam" was. Frankly, there's nothing more irritating to me personally than a 50-something yr. old guy writing lyrics like a 17-yr. old guy on a pussy hunt, full of innuendos and cliches. [img]graemlins/sleep.gif[/img]

    (Mental image : old guy in a raincoat on a street corner, open raincoat, shaking his wrinkly wang, saying "hey girlies, wanna touch my cooooooock????" [img]graemlins/wtf.gif[/img]

    Sorry, but to me, you mature and move forward as you get older, even in the world of Rock and Roll.

  12. #12
    no stinkin click! muffdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.27.02
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    7,761
    Favorite VH Album

    all
    Favorite VH Song

    strung out....
    Last Online

    02.28.14 @ 07:54 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts


    Premium Member

    Donor

    Originally posted by Wolfman:
    Maybe it's just because I'm on the older end of the VH fanbase, but I couldn't agree more with Ed about how stupid "Amsterdam" was. Frankly, there's nothing more irritating to me personally than a 50-something yr. old guy writing lyrics like a 17-yr. old guy on a pussy hunt, full of innuendos and cliches. [img]graemlins/sleep.gif[/img]

    (Mental image : old guy in a raincoat on a street corner, open raincoat, shaking his wrinkly wang, saying "hey girlies, wanna touch my cooooooock????" [img]graemlins/wtf.gif[/img]

    Sorry, but to me, you mature and move forward as you get older, even in the world of Rock and Roll.
    lmao....but yeah ...i kinda agree...

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk Wolfman's Avatar
    Join Date
    05.31.00
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    8,119
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Hear About It Later, Atomic Pu
    Last Online

    07.20.17 @ 03:43 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Word, man. Trust me, I meant it to be funny, but I really do feel that way. I don't think Rock and Roll songs should be about baking cookies and picking flowers, but there's a line that gets crossed a lot with "veteran" performers. Sam's more than capable of writing better lyrics. I like a lot of the stuff he's done n- "In and Out" is excellent lyric writing, in my opinion (despite the obvious intended innuendo in the title, which the song really isn't about anyway). "Seventh Seal" is good lyric writing to me too, as well as several others. You have to find that balance (no pun intended) between what you can write well about and what makes sense coming from the singer and where they are in their life.

  14. #14
    Baluchitherium Guitar Shark's Avatar
    Join Date
    11.08.01
    Age
    47
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    4,334
    Favorite VH Song

    Mean Street
    Last Online

    03.01.10 @ 10:22 AM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts


    Donor

    Originally posted by Wolfman:
    Frankly, there's nothing more irritating to me personally than a 50-something yr. old guy writing lyrics like a 17-yr. old guy on a pussy hunt, full of innuendos and cliches. [img]graemlins/sleep.gif[/img]

    (Mental image : old guy in a raincoat on a street corner, open raincoat, shaking his wrinkly wang, saying "hey girlies, wanna touch my cooooooock????" [img]graemlins/wtf.gif[/img]

    Sorry, but to me, you mature and move forward as you get older, even in the world of Rock and Roll.
    Very true. Also true is the fact that this statement applies equally to another famous frontman.

  15. #15
    Top Of The World
    Join Date
    07.02.01
    Age
    53
    Location
    Plymouth,Mi
    Posts
    168
    Favorite VH Album

    Fair Warning
    Favorite VH Song

    Ain\'t Talkin\' Bout Love
    Last Online

    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
    Likes
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Originally posted by aftershock5:
    I think that everybody forgets that Ed had alot to do w/ the Roth Era lyrics. Also, what you said makes sense, but consider this: First, VH always seemed to release their albums a few years apart, especially during the Sammy era. Once they broke up we all heard conflicting stories as to "work ethic." It's my opinion that this was a cop out. I think there are so many variables involved w/ that split, that we'll never really know the truth. I mean give me a break, all of the sudden Ed wants to get right back in the studio? Sam's to blame b/c he wanted time off? It just doesn't make sense. With Dave, it was a clean split. As much as some of the trouble-makers on this board make it out to be, Dave left b/c Dave wanted to go onto other things (movie star, etc.). Any TRUE VH fan knows this.
    Simply put, the death of Ed Lefler, new management and a breakdown in overall friendship lead to the dissolution of Vh/ w/ Sam.
    As far as the subsequent efforts w/ Dave, it didn't work. It never will, period. Dave is Dave. Sam is Sam. The debate will continue, but we will all be the ones who get screwed in the end.
    You're wrong. Dave wrote ALL the lyrics with VH, while Ed wrote ALL the music. Also,with Dave,they put out an album in 1978,79,80,81,82 and finally,1984. Unlike with Sam,they put out an album every couple years or so. It also seemed to most of u,who didnt really follow VH back in the Dave era,but Dave got antsy because the boys wanted to slow down the recording process,as is evident in future work with Sam,and Dave didnt want to sit around and make a album every 2-3 years,so he left. As years have gone on,yes Dave eventually slowed down as well,but not until 6-7 years later. It appeared that Ed started getting,lazy,maybe? And he always blamed Sam for a bad work ethic,but Ed appears,to me anyway,is the one with a bad work ethic.And I say this,not being a big Van Hagar fan. [img]graemlins/bounce.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bounce.gif[/img]
    " There's a lil Van Halen in everyone" - DLR

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Time to get involved.
    By Killroywashere in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04.04.02, 06:04 AM
  2. Surprised Dave's not involved with this...
    By billy007 in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10.27.01, 10:35 PM
  3. VH involved with March Madness...
    By Cabo Kid in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Non-Music)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03.20.01, 11:46 AM
  4. Who would have thought they were involved?
    By Timothy B Schmidt in forum Main VH Discussion
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10.23.00, 09:26 PM
  5. Best guitarist involved with VH member that's not EVH
    By billy007 in forum VH Fans Meeting Place (Music Only)
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08.20.00, 10:56 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •