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Thread: sell-outs?

  1. #1
    Outta Space Cowboy Scotty's Avatar
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    12.15.17 @ 01:32 PM
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    Donor

    Why is it that the Sammy era is always considered a pop sell-out? VH and Sammy made some damn good rock n roll. And when you think about it, "Jump" was, in essence, the first Van Halen pop song, which was recorded before Dave left. Not to mention that Eddie had written and wanted to record "Right Now" also before Dave left. Let's stop blaming Sammy for the band's change of direction back in 1986. Both eras kick the living shit out of anything you can hear on the radio today.

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    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    Donor

    Hi Scotty, welcome to the Links.

    We welcome this type of post, and we try to keep them in the Opinions/Speculation forum. I'm going to send it there now to be continued. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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    Atomic Punk FORD's Avatar
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    10.22.17 @ 08:55 PM
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    While it's true that Eddie had the cheesy pop ideas in his head already, it was Sammy who allowed those to become the rule rather than the exception. And again, half the cheese factor was Sammy's Hallmark card lyrics. The point can be debated about the place of "sincere" love songs within rock n roll, but that is immaterial when it comes to Van Hagar. It was designed to market them to the trendy Top 40 audience via MTV and "hit" radio stations. And that is the very definition of selling out.Especially when it became obvious that there wasn't an ounce of sincerity in Sammy's sap. I'll take the completely ludicrous lyrics of "Red" or "Trans Am (Highway Wonderland) over the cheese ballads anyday.
    Eat Us And Smile

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    ...It's the BAND and Dave is really the cat that can front VH. He sang his ASS off and was really cool. No cheese here guys, this is filet Mignon! - Steve Lukather's comment after witnessing a Van HALEN 2007 rehearsal

    "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears?"- 1 Samuel 15:14

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    Eruption
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    sammy gets the shaft because people like FORD generally twist reality to fit their version of it.

    what FORD and others like him fail to acknowledge is that VH was headed in the pop direction long before sammy joined the band. 1984 is proof.

    the sad truth is the best known VH song is Jump, a top 40 pop tune if there ever was one. note that it was released on 1984, with the almighty Diamond Dave at the wheel.

    FORD and his ilk whine about sammy taking control of the musical direction of the band and leading them to top 40 mediocrity. this, of course, is total non-sense.

    VH always has, and always will be, EDDIE'S band. 1984 clearly demonstrates that EDDIE wanted to move in the top 40 direction (Dave himself complained of it after leaving the band.) EDDIE recruited sammy into the band knowing full-well sammy's musical credentials and writing style.

    FORD and his followers need to accept the fact that EDDIE bears ultimate culpability for every major musical decision in VH--both good and bad.

    interesting footnote: after leaving the band Dave openly complained about EDDIE'S move toward pop music. yet his initial solo record was clearly a top 40 pop rip off. so much for credibility.

  5. #5
    Atomic Punk FORD's Avatar
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    10.22.17 @ 08:55 PM
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    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SeriousDooDoo:
    sammy gets the shaft because people like FORD generally twist reality to fit their version of it.

    I twist nothing. To paraphrase Joe Perry, I let the music do the talking.

    what FORD and others like him fail to acknowledge is that VH was headed in the pop direction long before sammy joined the band. 1984 is proof.

    Dave openly resisted that misdirection. Hagar didn't.

    the sad truth is the best known VH song is Jump, a top 40 pop tune if there ever was one. note that it was released on 1984, with the almighty Diamond Dave at the wheel.

    Never said it was among my favorites. As a matter of fact, my intial reaction to the song on 12/31/83 was heavy vomiting. And I hadn't had a thing to drink yet.

    FORD and his ilk whine about sammy taking control of the musical direction of the band and leading them to top 40 mediocrity. this, of course, is total non-sense.

    I said no such thing. What I said was that Sammy accepted Eddie's declinations into top 40 meiocrity, and then wrote sappy assed lyrics geared toward that market. JUMP was a sellout pop song, but it wasn't a cheese ballad..

    VH always has, and always will be, EDDIE'S band. 1984 clearly demonstrates that EDDIE wanted to move in the top 40 direction (Dave himself complained of it after leaving the band.) EDDIE recruited sammy into the band knowing full-well sammy's musical credentials and writing style.

    Sammy Hagar said that when he set foot in that studio in the summer of 1985, he found three musicians with NO direction. It was obvious to him that David lee Roth was the band's leader. Sammy then assumed that role himself. The music between 1984 and OU812 is like night and day.. 5150 was the intermediary, but you can tell very easily which songs were written before Dave left the band. Two entirely different sounds, two entirely different bands. And if Eddie was the only one determining the direction that would not have been POSSIBLE.

    FORD and his followers need to accept the fact that EDDIE bears ultimate culpability for every major musical decision in VH--both good and bad.

    He certainly bears ultimate culpability for the fucking mess he has made out of everything since June 15, 1996

    interesting footnote: after leaving the band Dave openly complained about EDDIE'S move toward pop music. yet his initial solo record was clearly a top 40 pop rip off. so much for credibility.<hr></blockquote>

    You mean the 4 song EP? that was released before Dave left the band, and it was specifically intended to be a complete departure, musically speaking, from the Van HALEN sound. There was nothing pop oriented about Dave's first post VH album Eat Em and Smile.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Welcome back, Van HALEN!!!!

    ...It's the BAND and Dave is really the cat that can front VH. He sang his ASS off and was really cool. No cheese here guys, this is filet Mignon! - Steve Lukather's comment after witnessing a Van HALEN 2007 rehearsal

    "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears?"- 1 Samuel 15:14

  6. #6
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    08.27.17 @ 09:39 AM
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    Ford: You say you said "no such thing" about Sammy taking control of the bands direction....then you said Sammy walked in to the studio and found the band with no musical direction. Read it for yourself.....DUDE!
    Go ahead...........READ IT!!!!!! Hypocrite! [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img]
    Just go for it!

  7. #7
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    10.22.17 @ 08:55 PM
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    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BREW CREW:
    Ford: You say you said "no such thing" about Sammy taking control of the bands direction....then you said Sammy walked in to the studio and found the band with no musical direction. Read it for yourself.....DUDE!
    Go ahead...........READ IT!!!!!! Hypocrite! [img]graemlins/irked.gif[/img]
    <hr></blockquote>

    I know exactly what I said. It's obvious you don't.

    The sheep known as DooDoo head tried to make it appear as though I hold Sammy Hagar singularly responsible for Van Hagar becoming a top 40 trendy cheese band sellout. I never said that.

    What I said then, now and in the future is that Sammy, due to his easygoing hippie nature, did not stand up to Eddie and resist the flood of poppiness coming out his synthesizer. Instead, he went to the local Hallmark card store with an empty notebook, copied some words down, threw in some bullshit about aliens and created a product that was deliberately designed to sell to the trendy top 40 audience. It was Sammy's ego that said he gave the band the direction, but this much is true: The chemistry between David Lee Roth and Eddie Van Halen is what created the legendary music of Van HALEN. And with that chemistry gone, and nobody resisting Eddie's flood of crap, obviously the direction is going to change. Hagar led the band because somebody had to and Eddie wasn't capable, as he was always fucked up. The musical direction was more than likely 40% Eddie, 40% Hagar, and 20% WB pressure to conform. Had Dave been there, that last 20 percent wouldn't have been an issue and the remaining would have been much different.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Welcome back, Van HALEN!!!!

    ...It's the BAND and Dave is really the cat that can front VH. He sang his ASS off and was really cool. No cheese here guys, this is filet Mignon! - Steve Lukather's comment after witnessing a Van HALEN 2007 rehearsal

    "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears?"- 1 Samuel 15:14

  8. #8
    Outta Space Cowboy Scotty's Avatar
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    12.15.17 @ 01:32 PM
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    Donor

    To say that nothing they recorded with Dave was geared towards top 40 radio is silly. You Really Got Me, Dance The Night Away, Jump...most of Diver Down and 1984...all bands want mainstream hits to sell records. The original VH, kick ass as they were, was guilty of the same.

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    Atomic Punk hain23x's Avatar
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    12.11.17 @ 03:59 PM
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    VH has been playing pop tunes since day 1
    Eat Us and Smile!

  10. #10
    Outta Space Cowboy Scotty's Avatar
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    12.15.17 @ 01:32 PM
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    Donor

    Chew on this, FORD...

    In six years (1978-1984), Van Roth tallied seven top 40 hits
    1. You Really Got Me (1978)
    2. Dance The Night Away (1979)
    3. Pretty Woman (1982)
    4. Dancing In The Street (1982)
    5. Jump (1984)
    6. I'll Wait (1984)
    7. Panama (1984)

    In ten years (1986-1996), Van Hagar tallied nine top 40 hits
    1. Why Can't This Be Love (1986)
    2. Dreams (1986)
    3. Love Walks In (1986)
    4. Black And Blue (1988)
    5. When It's Love (1988)
    6. Finish What Ya Started (1988)
    7. Feels So Good (1989)
    8. Top Of The World (1991)
    9. Can't Stop Lovin' You (1995)

    So to say that VH with Dave didn't cater to the mainstream just as much as VH with Sammy makes no sense. Van Hagar were in the spotlight four years longer than Van Roth and only had two more top 40 hits than the classic VH. If the original lineup stayed together for another record or two, the Roth era would almost certainly have more pop-hits than the Sammy era.

  11. #11
    Hang 'Em High Stuff No More's Avatar
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    01.08.05 @ 11:08 AM
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    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by FORD:
    [QB]I twist nothing<hr></blockquote>

    BWA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    *gasp*
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    *snort, chuckle, weeze*

    Aw, damn, FORD, thanks. I needed a good laugh like that.
    "Just once I'd like to do the right thing and not get punished for it."

  12. #12
    Eruption
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    06.08.07 @ 12:27 PM
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    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by FORD:


    I know exactly what I said. It's obvious you don't.

    The sheep known as DooDoo head tried to make it appear as though I hold Sammy Hagar singularly responsible for Van Hagar becoming a top 40 trendy cheese band sellout. I never said that.

    What I said then, now and in the future is that Sammy, due to his easygoing hippie nature, did not stand up to Eddie and resist the flood of poppiness coming out his synthesizer. Instead, he went to the local Hallmark card store with an empty notebook, copied some words down, threw in some bullshit about aliens and created a product that was deliberately designed to sell to the trendy top 40 audience. It was Sammy's ego that said he gave the band the direction, but this much is true: The chemistry between David Lee Roth and Eddie Van Halen is what created the legendary music of Van HALEN. And with that chemistry gone, and nobody resisting Eddie's flood of crap, obviously the direction is going to change. Hagar led the band because somebody had to and Eddie wasn't capable, as he was always fucked up. The musical direction was more than likely 40% Eddie, 40% Hagar, and 20% WB pressure to conform. Had Dave been there, that last 20 percent wouldn't have been an issue and the remaining would have been much different.
    <hr></blockquote>

    hey FORD,

    that shit about the hallmark card and aliens is funny!! i like it!!

    post more stuff like that!!

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk BREW CREW's Avatar
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    08.27.17 @ 09:39 AM
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    FORD: You didn't read your posts! read them out loud to yourself....you sound like a hypocrite. Don't try and reason with me...read your posts!!!! HYPOCRITE!!!!! I can read what you type....can you comprehend what you type?
    Just go for it!

  14. #14
    Atomic Punk BREW CREW's Avatar
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    08.27.17 @ 09:39 AM
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    FORD: If Van Halen hasn't existed since the album 1984, then why is Sammy in your vocabulary?
    Just go for it!

  15. #15
    Atomic Punk FORD's Avatar
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    10.22.17 @ 08:55 PM
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    Originally posted by scotty5150:
    Chew on this, FORD...
    So to say that VH with Dave didn't cater to the mainstream just as much as VH with Sammy makes no sense. Van Hagar were in the spotlight four years longer than Van Roth and only had two more top 40 hits than the classic VH. If the original lineup stayed together for another record or two, the Roth era would almost certainly have more pop-hits than the Sammy era.
    There is a difference between songs becoming hits because they are GOOD, and songs being deliberately designed for the Top 40 market.Nirvana had huge hits. Were they designed to be Top 40? Not quite. When did Zeppelin ever make a deliberate sellout? OK, Jimmy Page did, 20 years after the fact, but that's beside the point. Top 40 success can be accidental if the trendies just happen to get a little good taste, or it can be totally premeditated.

    For example, both Jump and Hot For Teacher were big hits, but would anyone in their right mind say "Hot For Teacher" was designed to be a top 40 song? Of course not, because it wasn't.

    Blame it on Sammy. Blame it on Eddie. Blame it on Warner Brothers, or on all three. But there was absolutely a deliberate move to market Van Hagar to the trendy top 40 audience, that was not at all present on the Van HALEN albums, Jump being the exception.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Welcome back, Van HALEN!!!!

    ...It's the BAND and Dave is really the cat that can front VH. He sang his ASS off and was really cool. No cheese here guys, this is filet Mignon! - Steve Lukather's comment after witnessing a Van HALEN 2007 rehearsal

    "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears?"- 1 Samuel 15:14

 

 

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