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  1. #1
    carpe damn diem billy007's Avatar
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    12.12.17 @ 05:29 AM
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    Could 1985 have been avoided - could Van Halen have stayed intact and gone forward, or was the implosion in 1985 unavoidable? Personally, I think that if they'd have taken a few steps back, maybe took a year off (with the exception of maybe playing Live Aid - that would've ruled) - let Edward do some sort of solo project to get some of the music that he wanted to make out of his system, let Dave see if he could get his movie made... A lot of bands went through turbulent times during that period, some survived, seems like a lot didn't. What did the ones that survived do differently?

  2. #2
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    Donor

    I think where as Dave was absolutely flushed and estatic about the success of 1984, Eddie was burned out by it, combined with other things in his life at the time.

    Who was managing the band at the time? I can't remember at the moment. Whoever it was wasn't paying close enough attention. Once Dave's EP was green-lighted, I think the course was set.

    Dave got all sorts of acclaim for that EP and its videos. All of which went straight to his head, and left Ed feeling jealous and abandoned. Maybe I'm not catching the timeline quite right on this point, but I think it certainly cemented any bad feelings they had about one another.

    Time off, or maybe getting Dave in the studio recording a Spanish version of 1984 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] might have done the trick. Who knows though? For Dave time off meant doing things that would call attention to himself away from the band members, and I think this was a bad thing.

    Dave should've gone off on one of his jungle romps. That's probably what held things together prior to '85. A little Dave ain't enough, but too much? Well, we all know what happened. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

  3. #3
    Good Enough
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Strange as it may seem, 1985 was my favorite year. I was 11/12 years old, but I was having the most fun of my life-spending all day, every day, all summer at the neighborhood pool, where they blasted some really great music through the PA. Movies were great at the time (Back to the Future, Spies Like Us, etc).

    The only downside was the VH breakup, but I think it was necessary. With Eddie finally having his own studio to experiment in, but Dave raking in the fame (infamy?), they were obviously moving apart 180 degrees. In guitar magazine interviews of the time period, Ed was constantly mentioning purely musical things, and not still explaining his tapping technique or how his Variac worked. I THINK he was trying to break away from the 'rock and roll' crowd and become a more 'serious' musician.

    With that in mind, even though I love Sammy with VH, and 5150 is my all time favorite record, his joining the band after Dave left switched Eddie back into a different mode. Although he continued to 'mature' as a musician, he also got further away from his pure research. Perhaps Van Halen, the band, has really kept Van Halen, the musician, in the closet.


    Overall, I don't think the breakup could have been avoided. Ed and Dave were just going in different directions. A year off would have only been a procrastination. Keep in mind that nobody thought they would even last 5 years as a band, including the band! Had they waited a year and split up anyway, they may have completely retired as a band (well, until they decided to do a reunion), and we may have had NOTHING from them in the last 15 or so years.
    Don't bark at me...<b>I</b> didn't name ya.

  4. #4
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
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    Donor

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeL:
    Who was managing the band at the time? I can't remember at the moment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Noel Monk.

    I think it was inevitable. It was going to happen eventually, 1985 just happened to be the year. I think Eddie was tired of being known as a guitar hero exclusively, and Dave was one of the key people waving that guitar hero flag. I don't necessarily see that as being Dave's fault either, he just thought (my opinion of course) that VH was better with Eddie concentrating on the guitar, while Eddie thought he should expand. I think maybe Eddie's demons got too deep into him and he convinced himself that Dave's desire to have him concentrate on guitar was Dave's way of holding him down.

    At that point I think substances probably played a large part in keeping everyone from being able to sit down and try to understand (and accept) their differences. Maybe they could have, and maybe not, but at least there could have been the possibility of splitting up on more friendly terms.

    Either way, I just can't imagine how they could have survived until now with just the original four. Too many ego's going in too many different directions to be contained under one roof. Not to mention, I believe that eventually, even with Dave at the helm, eventually they would have made a musical misstep, or have fallen in the sales department.

    And while I think that a long break might have saved VH in 1995, I don't see that it would have saved them in 1985, at least not permenantly.

  5. #5
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
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    Donor

    You know, the combination of this thread and the BOV thread reminds me of something that I've been wondering about for awhile. And hell, this is the Speculation Forum, so I'm going to throw this out there. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

    Obviously, VH signed a contract with WB in 1977, but how many albums was that for? And when was it re-negotiated?

    The reason I wonder is, lately I've been thinking of Crazy From the Heat and the problems it created (or at least added to). Someone will correct me on small details, but to make it short, in the early/mid 80's, the Rolling Stones contract was re-negotiated and (behind Keith Richards' back) Mick Jagger had the contract structured to include a solo album for himself (Mick).

    What I've been wondering is, could Dave have done something similar; had the WB contract make provisions for a David Lee Roth solo album. Maybe behind Eddie's back, or maybe not; let's face it, like Keith Richards, Eddie was doing a lot of drugs and drinking a lot in the eighties, and he's never seemed particularily business savvy to start with, so it would be easy to imagine something like this slipping by him.

    I've never really bought the story of Dave sipping beers in Mexico with Eddie Anderson, hearing California Girls by the Beach Boys, having Eddie A. suggesting he record it himself, and then the album falling together so quickly. It just seems a tad (or a ton [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) too convenient to me.

    I'll admit, the theory does have holes in it; the primary one being that it's hard to imagine if this happened that EVH would have remained quiet about it all these years, but I still think it's a possibility.

    Anyway, food for thought!!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    03.03.15 @ 08:31 PM
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glenn:
    I'll admit, the theory does have holes in it; the primary one being that it's hard to imagine if this happened that EVH would have remained quiet about it all these years, but I still think it's a possibility.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think Ed's got a bit of an inferiority complex. Combine that with the possibility of him being incappable or unconcerned with making business decisions and you've got a good scenario going. If this is all the case, I can see Ed being very reluctant to admit that Dave had somehow gotten the better of him.

    So many of the rumors have been about contract problems. I usually just dismiss that idea, but now I'm rethinking things.

    Perhaps there's some bitterness there that we don't understand, and a bit of paranoia about Dave just using VH to re-launch his solo career. We all know that DLR is done solo-wise, but maybe that's a worry for EVH. He's certainly got a different perspective than we do.

    Maybe part of any new agreement will restrict Dave? Not on stage or in how the band functions, but in terms of doing things on his own. That'd be an interesting twist.

  7. #7
    Hang 'Em High Stuff No More's Avatar
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    01.08.05 @ 11:08 AM
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    I think 1985 couldn't be averted. A number of things (through hindsight) simply signaled the end of the Ed/Dave partnership.

    First you have DLR stifling Eddie's curiosity. Didn't want him to explore the keyboard. Didn't want to do ballads. Essentially wanted more and more of the same exact material they had done five times before.

    Second you have a hard schedule. I'm sure all of you have one friend you may love to death but just couldn't stand living with them if you had to. Dave and Ed just seem to have personality conflicts (didn't Ed not want him to begin with?)

    Third I'd say you have Roth's ignorance. Maybe ignorance is too harsh... I'll say, "niaviety." He obviously couldn't see that the band needed a break and couldn't keep the yearly album/tour pace up anymore. So he makes the call to do a solo album, gets a little success, sees a band that doesn't want to work right then, and pulls the trigger.

    Honestly, if Dave ever records with VH again, a huge hit would probably be the worst thing the collaboration could bring about - it would probably be the end of Dave's "humility."
    "Just once I'd like to do the right thing and not get punished for it."

  8. #8
    Atomic Punk Wolfman's Avatar
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    07.20.17 @ 03:43 PM
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    My answer is Prozac and counseling (then, not now). And I'm not kidding. You can laugh if you want, but if they had handled things head-on then instead of 16 years later, it would all be different. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

  9. #9
    Sinner's Swing!
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    You guys got it all wrong!

    The best way to have avoided 1985 is to go from 1984 to 1986, SKIPPING 1985 entirely. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
    "Sorry about the mess..."<br /><br />~Han Solo Episode IV

  10. #10
    Atomic Punk Bob_R's Avatar
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    12.13.11 @ 02:09 PM
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    I do not know if 1985 could have been avoided. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] But, I am convinced it definitly has to do with what is going on in 2001. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

  11. #11
    Eruption
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    02.27.09 @ 02:39 AM
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stuff No More:
    First you have DLR stifling Eddie's curiosity. Didn't want him to explore the keyboard. Didn't want to do ballads. Essentially wanted more and more of the same exact material they had done five times before.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Secrets, Little Dreamer, I'll Wait (okay, Dave wasn't keen on that one) Dance the Night away, Big Bad Bill, Cradle Will Rock, Push Comes to Shove, Could this be Magic.

    Van Roth had more diverse styles than Van Hager (Rocker/Ballad/Rocker/Ballad/Rocker/Ballad)

    IMO

    [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
    It'll all end in beers...

  12. #12
    Hang 'Em High Stuff No More's Avatar
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    Secrets - I'll give you that
    Little Dreamer - I'll give you that
    I'll Wait - Outside influence
    Dance the Night away - Still sounds like DLR/VH
    Big Bad Bill - Cover song
    Cradle Will Rock - Still sounds like DLR/VH
    Push Comes to Shove - I'll give you that
    Could this be Magic - I'll give you that

    Four "diverse" songs on 6 albums. I'd say you proved my point without trying [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
    "Just once I'd like to do the right thing and not get punished for it."

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk MikeL's Avatar
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    It's not 4 diverse songs on 6 albums, it's what you think are 4 diverse songs on 6 albums, SNM.

    The 'sound' is similar through out the 6 albums. That's an accomplishment. How many bands are actually able to craft a sound that is uniquely theirs and and theirs alone? Here's a good example for ya: Van Hagar always sounded good, but never captured anything that they were able to carry from album to album.

    How does Mean Street sound anything like Panama? Or Dance The Night Away like LUTS, from the same album? They are all in the classic VH style, which is an accomplishment.

  14. #14
    Beloved Glenn's Avatar
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    02.13.15 @ 08:56 AM
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    Stuff, I can't believe that besides 4 songs, you think the rest of the DLR era of VH is just "cookie cutter" versions of the same songs.

    What about "Dirty Movies", Women In Love, In A Simple Rhyme, Fools, Top Jimmy.

    I guess the natural extension of the debate is, "what was so 'diverse' about Van Halen after Dave left?"

  15. #15
    Hang 'Em High Stuff No More's Avatar
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    It's not so much that it's all "cookie cutter," Glenn. But it's a familiarity and lack of growth that I notice. And really, I'm talking about VH-FW myself, since DD and 1984 mixed things up a bit (never claimed those two sounded exactly alike).

    I think of it like this - no one wants to read the same book, see the same movie, or watch the same play over and over again. That's why "knock offs" are never as beloved or impressive as the original. It just gets to be feeling like, "Been there, done that." In the same vein, recording artists need to find some way to tweak their sound, staying true enough to their roots not to alienate fans.

    Take the two Creed albums for example. They sound EXACTLY alike (for good or for ill). Compare something like U2's War to their latest and you hear some definite "growth" in their sound. Or compare a lot of the '80s and early '90s Scorpions albums. Then compare, say, Disciplined Breakdown to Dosage to Blender from Collective Soul.

    Now then, compare VH to VH2. Or 5150 to OU812. See the point I'm making? With Roth, you get a lot of "baby steps," little tiny changes here and there. But for the most part, the first four albums sound the same. The Sam albums may not be as cohesive a unit as the Roth ones, but each album has a sound all it's own. The songs tackle various themes and stray from the Roth standard, "Women, partying, drinking, starting trouble."

    MikeL takes the stance that there was some deliberate thought put into everything sounding similar. I tend to feel it was just because it was all the band could get Dave to write lyrics for. And I like to think I'm on to something here - they'd have to have something else to be upset with him for to justify all the venom they spewed from 1985-1998.

    Imagine being Eddie, sitting down, and feeling out the keys part to Right Now. You're thinking, "This would be a cool thing to base a song off of." Dave comes in and says, "Eddie, stop wasting your time with that shit and pick up the guitar where you belong. We need another hard rockin' album!" Sam let Ed turn loose. Maybe a bit too much, it turns out. Perhaps Ed just needs a little bit of focus, not the heavy-hand DLR took with him.
    "Just once I'd like to do the right thing and not get punished for it."

 

 

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