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  1. #1
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    This was from a Guitar Room topic about Yngvie, but I thought it should have it's own thread and get the views of the other VH Fans Music Only posters. Apologies for the rudimentary cut/past job and for not posting (making time) in this forum enough.
    Peace GH4L

    ABE VAN HALEN WROTE:
    Come on, now. This 'soul' and 'emotion' myth has got to go. Someone playing 10, 100, or 1000 notes a minute has NOTHING to do with the amount of 'soul' or 'emotion' in one's playing. Saying that such IS the case just exposes quite of bit of resentment and jealousy.

    Playing "blues", playing sloppy, or playing slowly and bending like mad had NOTHING to do with emotion either.

    Being a flog-rocker with pseudo-rebellious angst is not instant soul or emotion.

    I would argue that Randy Rhoads was as cold and sterile as anyone, and was simply going through the motions with Ozzy. If he were here today, he'd probably admit it. Let's face it: he was in the studio, making sure he duplicated his solos note-for-note so they could double- or triple-track them. How is that soulful or emotional? It wasn't; it was as mechanical as you can get.

    How about Bach (and others like him) who wrote without being near an instrument? Is that soul-less?

    When Horowitz flies through the opening strains of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto, is that soul-less? After all, he must be playing a good 1200 notes per minute/per hand! Hell, that's like DOUBLE SOULLESSNESS.

    Al DiMeola whipping through a sizzling flamenco progression at 212 beats a minute-is that soulless too?

    Oh yeah, what about Eddie Van Halen? He played pretty damn fast at times, so he ain't got no soul. Shit, he must be another fucking wanker.

    John Coltrane was known to play around 1200 notes a minute as well. Man, what a soulless freak.

    Stevie Ray Vaughan would noodle endlessly on a damn E minor pentatonic scale. Damn fuckin' robot.

    I don't doubt Yngwie's conviction, emotion, or soul when he plays one damn bit. I don't particularly care to listen to him, but that doesn't mean that he's got no feel.

    And if 'anyone can play 1000 notes a minute if they wanted to', and that means they have no soul, if they slow down to 999 notes a minute, do they get that soul back?

    GTRHEAD4LIFE RESPONDED:

    All music is the soul speaking, people either prefer, not prefer, understand, or not understand different types of music ( i.e. languages, accents, and vocabularies )

    The feel issue can be best summed up as whether someone is into their playing or burnt out and not into it. This is hard and damn impossible to fake and most people see it right away.

    Peace
    GH4L
    "Choose Wisely"

  2. #2
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Yngwie ain't got no soul!!!!!! Natch'l facts. Eddie haz soul. Dave is Soul Brotha #2. Coltrane and SRV were gigantic SOUL MEN!! You either got it or you ain't. Sho nuff.

    Mighty Joe Holmes=no soul. Who stole the soul?

    I dig axe playa that bring more to the table than shreddery or string acrobatics. You gots to have a lil' hot buttered soul, somethin' that sets you apart, and you gots to be an entertainer...

    If ya listen to Son House beatin' his guitar like a junkyard dog and singin' and screamin' 'bout choosin' The Lawd or The Devil, you pick up thiz whole soul mess, YEZ YEZ YEZ... [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img]

  3. #3
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    I saw Ozzy in '88 and Zak Wylde did a solo. It was can you clap faster that I can play? THAT said it all about no soul. Zak has evolved and plays more with feel and speed now. They can be intertwined. Yngwie, Bratta, and a few others are technically sound whereas EVH, SRV, Rhoads, and Bettencourt will sacrifice a great solo for one that feels right. That's what music in general is all about. When done right the audience can feel the pain, joy, or sadness of the musician.
    Do you believe? Don't you trust me?<br /><br />"I'm just trying to get in to heaven, I'm not running for Jesus." - Homer Simpson

  4. #4
    Baluchitherium
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    09.15.15 @ 08:40 AM
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    yeah, in yngwie's playing you can tell that he's not really making a soulful effort. he's just trying to go as fast as he can.
    eddie's guilty of that too, listen to the solo of sinners swing.
    just because you play fast doesn't mean that you don't have soul though, some of those solos just sound musically on. SRV kicks ass.
    but to me, yngwie sounds like a robot.

  5. #5
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    This is a tough arguement to make...against the "soulfulness" of one player over another...

    There's lots of technical stuff that is soulful...I feel the soul in Dream Theater's music and it can be blindingly fast...

    The key to the soul of a player is the LOVE...It can't be faked and it can't be taught and it can't be bought or sold...

    When Ed plays, you see his love for music...Ditto almost everyone Abe mentioned...

    Lack of soul has ALWAYS been a problem with pop music...Pop means popular and that means marketing and sales gimmicks for teenage kids...Britney ain't in it for the love...she's in it so she can be Britney...Same for Madonna, N'Sync, BSB, Limp Dicks, et al...They groove on the fame and if that's where your head is, you'll always be seen as a phony...
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  6. #6
    Atomic Punk jrk5150's Avatar
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    12.17.17 @ 06:10 AM
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    Donor

    Originally posted by SactoFan:
    This is a tough arguement to make...against the "soulfulness" of one player over another...

    There's lots of technical stuff that is soulful...I feel the soul in Dream Theater's music and it can be blindingly fast...

    The key to the soul of a player is the LOVE...It can't be faked and it can't be taught and it can't be bought or sold...

    When Ed plays, you see his love for music...Ditto almost everyone Abe mentioned...

    Lack of soul has ALWAYS been a problem with pop music...Pop means popular and that means marketing and sales gimmicks for teenage kids...Britney ain't in it for the love...she's in it so she can be Britney...Same for Madonna, N'Sync, BSB, Limp Dicks, et al...They groove on the fame and if that's where your head is, you'll always be seen as a phony...
    Playing with soul is hard to describe. I think a big part of it is the ability to make an instrument sing. Never played guitar, but played some brass in HS at a pretty good level, so I can hear it, but I can't describe it. Best way I can is to use an example. We had a music/band instructor, and a choral instructor. Both professional musicians and both very technically competent. Sit them both down on a piano and they can whale out all kind of classical. But... for some reason, the choral instructor just made the piano sing. It had a different resonance and tone, that went deeper than the notes. Going to rock music, Clapton and SRV both can/could take a note and just make it scream. They were playing stuff that just came all the way through them up from their toes.

    I don't know about Eddie. The fact that in the past he had to be drunk to play smoothly (see sobriety interviews from Balance related to FUCK) makes me wonder. He is a musical genius, but does he play with soul? I like to think so, but he doesn't really make the instrument sing the way Clapton and SRV do/did. Maybe just different styles, tough to say. I will say there is some stuff on Balance that encouraged me, where he did more with an individual drawn out note as opposed to screaming up and down a scale.

  7. #7
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Bach made a living out of notes of short duration.

    Mozart's left hand was intentionally as predictable as a music box. (the right hand, however, is another story)

    Liszt played faster than many people could hear. People have CRIED when hearing his music.

    Kenny G set a world record for longest note on a wind instrument. (I suppose he was more soul than anyone else on Earth?)

    There's a paradox here. Further...

    Jimi Hendrix is considered a soulful player, and I haven't the slightest clue why. He was less sober than Dean Martin. He made noises on guitar, and the few notes he played were out of tune and out of time. Yet, since he has "blues roots" he is considered Mr. Soul. The way I hear it, he couldn't even control the NOISE from his guitar/amp, let alone the NOTES themselves. His tools steered him, not the other way around.

    There is a terrible notion that if someone plays "blues" that they have more feel than someone who plays in another style. That is the lamest crock of shit. Actually, it has simply become politically correct to praise 'blues' players.

    Jan Hammer made music with an INCREDIBLE amount of feel, and he played (oh no, gasp) a SYNTHESIZER.

    A player has 'soul' when they go BEYOND the instrument that burdens them while using it as a vehicle for communication. The connection from player to music is seemingly direct. In other words, some guys play a guitar. Others play music ON a guitar. And there are those whose guitars play THEM. Big difference.

    Think of a sculptor; one with artistic talent will conceive of an image and then bring it into reality. He still needs to have the craft under his belt in order to do so. Someone with an image in their head but NO craft cannot manifest their image.

    Beethoven spent agonizing MONTHS working on a piece of music. He started from sketches and worked like mad through trial and error until it was just right. He revised, edited, and rewrote all the time. That was how he created. Few, if any, musicians have ever created music with that much feeling. Beethoven was NOT spontaneous. Beethoven was not a blues man either.

    As for making an instrument sing, well, Buddy Rich couldn't make his 'notes' sustain long enough to make them sing.

    I have never heard a harpsichord sing. Nor have I heard one bend a note. But I have heard many dazzling emotional performances on them.

    I have heard countless singers draw out their notes, and imbue them with a vibrato no more human than a one-speed oscillator. Vibrato is not soul.

    Blues is A feel, not feel itself. Blues is not soul either; it's simply another style of music. Stress the word simply; perhaps that's why people think it has so much soul-it's simple enough for large numbers of people to grasp. That gets mistaken for soul.

    No one style has a monopoly on soul; every genre has its artists and its wannabes.

    And feel doesn't mean slow and/or sad. A REAL player's 'soul' will shine through no matter WHAT genre they belong to.
    Don't bark at me...<b>I</b> didn't name ya.

  8. #8
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Abe,
    I don't think that you minded, but I apologize for posting your reply as a stand alone topic without asking you, but I'm glad I did.

    The above reply is exceptionally good. You should consider developing this into an editorial and sending it to every music magazine you can. I'd be surprised if you didn't get an offer to write for one of them.

    Peace
    GH4L
    "Choose Wisely"

  9. #9
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Originally posted by AbeVanHalen:

    Kenny G set a world record for longest note on a wind instrument. (I suppose he was more soul than anyone else on Earth?)

    Jimi Hendrix is considered a soulful player, and I haven't the slightest clue why. He was less sober than Dean Martin. He made noises on guitar, and the few notes he played were out of tune and out of time. Yet, since he has "blues roots" he is considered Mr. Soul. The way I hear it, he couldn't even control the NOISE from his guitar/amp, let alone the NOTES themselves. His tools steered him, not the other way around.

    There is a terrible notion that if someone plays "blues" that they have more feel than someone who plays in another style. That is the lamest crock of shit. Actually, it has simply become politically correct to praise 'blues' players.

    Blues is A feel, not feel itself. Blues is not soul either; it's simply another style of music. Stress the word simply; perhaps that's why people think it has so much soul-it's simple enough for large numbers of people to grasp. That gets mistaken for soul.
    Well Well Well, Abe, you seem like a smart cat, but why are you pickin' on the blues? Kenny G sucks. When I listen to Jimi, I hear SOUL. Why don't you like it if blues players get praised? FUCK political correctness. The blues is a feeling. An' sho, some blues is simple, but let's not over-generalize. A cat like Robert Johnson's step-son does not play simple blues. I'm thinkin' soulfullness is a one by one judgement call. Muddy Waters invented electricity!!

    "Blues grabbed mamchild, tore him all upside down."--Robert Johnson

    The blues ain't nothin' but a good woman on your mind.--Blind Lemon Jefferson

    Seriously, I usually hate your posts, but rock on brotha!! You're not as bad as that Warhead idiot, to your credit.

  10. #10
    Sinner's Swing! Rokgtar's Avatar
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    12.16.17 @ 06:54 PM
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    This is an excellent topic...

    Some say that to play blues authentically, you have to have experienced the blues, or some hardship/life experience that somehow filters through you and manifests itself musically. This is the supposed reason why a Muddy Waters or a Robert Johnson is authentic. Back in the 50's and 60's, young Brits who wanted to play the blues often threw themselves into the streets trying to live the blues, so that perhaps (with luck) it would enter their music.

    But using this logic, how can you explain guitar players like Kenny Wayne Shepherd, or Jonny Lang, two great blues players who (combined) haven't lived a total of 45 years? Neither of these guys has had what would be considered a "blues" life, but they sure do play like they did!

    This is magical stuff; it comes to those with a deeper sense of feeling on a musical level that the average player/person experiences.

    I define soul in music playing as the exact moment/event where technical ability morphs with fluidity and lyricism. At that point, the notes begin to tell a story, and usually the more original and unencumbered the presentation is, the more soulful the music becomes. Musicians describe a feeling when this happens; it's like "falling down the stairs and landing on your feet", or it's "like, the music just flows through me; I am just an agent" or "I just close my eyes and hang on...".

    I am a guitar player, and I have had gigs where I couldn't play a soulful note if my life depended on it, and then I've had nights where it all just seemed to be magic, and I could play no wrong. Usually, those were the nights when no one was listening

    [ February 09, 2002 at 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Rokgtar ]</p>

  11. #11
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    01.10.09 @ 01:07 PM
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    Soul is "YOU" either it comes out, you let it out, or you don't, or don't know how to. Soul is about being connected or appearing to be so disconnected, but embodied within an emotion that it can overtake you, consume you, envelope you. It can come from a perspective of survival or complete breakdown, or even of one of understanding, and compassion. Soul is letting the music overpower you, letting the music flow throw you for you are merely tapping into that quality of human experience that cannot be totally defined. Soul just is, or it just ain't, but if it's not there at one point of life(because for all intensive purposes it is always there, you merely need to reach out to it and find it).

    To say that Jimi Hendrix has no Soul is nothing more than you saying alot about yourself, but it doesn't matter for it is all opinion based on experience and understanding...If all you can talk about is the speed or lack of speed or style or non-style well, that says alot too. Music can have Soul if you are capable of totally letting go, and letting the music become you, and yourself become the music, no matter what style of music it is...but there should be a depth to it, something that emanates from your subconscious, from your human experience, it is difficult to define, but the one thing I can say about Soul is that it is the most real thing to know and experience...

  12. #12
    Niners Fan! SactoFan's Avatar
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    This has become one of the best threads I have read here...
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  13. #13
    Atomic Punk jrk5150's Avatar
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    12.17.17 @ 06:10 AM
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    Speed of playing has nothing to do with it. Holding out a note doesn't either, but it does make it easier to evaluate or feel the sound. And, Abe, I disagree that a drum can't sing. Moon, Bonham, Rich, Pert, they made (or make in Pert's case) those suckers sing. The music has to come from you THROUGH the instrument, all the way from your toes. In a case like Bach or Beethoven, the chosen instrument was a pen, but it doesn't change the concept. But to PLAY with soul, regardless of the music, is to allow the instrument to become one with you, to lose yourself in the music to the point where it's not a conscious act, it's like breathing. But it's even more than that, and I give up. I just can't describe it in words, but I usually know it when I hear it.

  14. #14
    Niners Fan! SactoFan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Incredible Edible Dude:
    I just can't describe it in words, but I usually know it when I hear it.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    That pretty much sums it up for me, too...
    Can't stop...addicted to the shindig...

  15. #15
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    12.31.69 @ 04:00 PM
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    Originally posted by Incredible Edible Dude:
    And, Abe, I disagree that a drum can't sing. Moon, Bonham, Rich, Peart, they made (or make in Pert's case) those suckers sing. The music has to come from you THROUGH the instrument, all the way from your toes.
    If you carefully read my post, what you said here WAS my point-that merely sustaining a note has no more 'soul' than a short one. The way I wrote all that may have seemed otherwise, but please reread it. Same with the Kenny G remark-while it may have seemed that I was praising him, I was, in fact, being quite sarcastic toward him.
    Don't bark at me...<b>I</b> didn't name ya.

 

 

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