The Steroid Thread

[chefcraig]

There is a reason I did not place this within the confines of the MLB Thread...the folk running the show there are doing a fine job, and I simply do not wish to hi-jack the thread with this:

Apparently, a few excerpts from Jose Conseco's new "tell-all" book made their way to the pages of the New York Daily News (I think, regarding the paper) on Sunday, and since then, the baseball world has been in an uproar, if one believes ESPN.

Jose goes on about steroids, their use and actually names names in this tabloid "book".

He names Mark Maguire, who you may or may not remember that along with Chicago's Sammy Sosa, brought many folk back to baseball in the summer of 1998.

Pundits are saying the "Home Run Chase" of '98 is now tainted.
That ANY home run record in the past few years is similiarly painted with the same brush.

Let us despense with Conseco's character or motives here. I have personally witnessed this man arrive at a local park in his loud sportscar, to meet and greet a group of young baseball fans including toddlers, then proceed to whip out a stack of 8 x 10 photos, a pen and a Folder's coffee can to collect 25 DOLLARS A POP for a signed picture.

So taking Coseco out of this...

My thrust is this: Do you feel these records should show an asterisk beside them, are you maddened, or do you simply not care?

Through conversations with friends, we are all split pretty even...I'm intrigued to see how you folk feel.

craig :thumb:

[SuckaInA3Piece]

Nah, I don't think there should be an aterisk next to their records. With all due respect to some of the great players of 20, 30, 40yrs ago and so on, who knows if they were on the juice or not. It's been in MLB for years now, and many guys have prospered because of the drug.

Let's take Brady Anderson. This cat was never a pure power hitter, then all of a sudden he bulks up and hits over 50?!?! People get on Bonds for getting bigger, but atleast he's done it over time. Brady came out of nowhere with that great homerun season he had. It's not fair because many players have played the game without the extra help of a drug, and were great players due to all the hard work they put in. But I guess it's just the way it is, or was I should say.

Baseball can be against this all they want, which I think is good by the way, but without Sosa and McGwire, MLB is still in the shitter. It's ashame that these guys had to enhance themselves in the way they did, but truth be told it did get the sport back in the hearts of many again. It's hardly America's pasttime anymore though. Football has clearly taken over.

As for Jose, I worshiped the Bash Bros. when I was younger. Every time I boght a pack of TOPPS or Donross, I always looked for Canseco and Mac in the pack. Now I just wish Jose would go away instead of trying to cash in on a quick buck.

[BREW CREW]

1st: What kind of coffee is Folders? :D
No asterisk unless any player tested positive for an illegal substance.
If guys like Bonds, Sosa and Big Mac (and others) ever admit to using illegal substances I will be pissed, but here is a thought on performance enhancing substances: 1st off: great eyesight is a huge factor in baseball and other sports (right?). If someone is all bulked up on roids and can't see the ball well, then it isn't worth a shit. If you can't see the ball well, react quick enough to hit the ball, it's a swing and miss. How much more power does roids actually give? Cork doesn't do shit really as far as distance, it just makes the bat lighter and you can swing faster but with less velocity behind it because of less weight. Sooo, what is the difference? Is it because it is illegal?? YES! Does it help you hit the ball...not really. Aren't contacts and glasses performance enhancing? :scared:
I am not condoning roids, but do they really make someone hit homers better? It shouldn't IMO...but I will be pissed if someone is caught since they all know it is illegal!

[SactoFan]

From what I've read and heard, roids are a definite plus. They help the fast twitch muscles which is a major plus in hitting because of increased bat speed.

[chefcraig]

1st: What kind of coffee is Folders? :D

!

Is it "Folgers"? I dunno...yet that is where he stuffed the cash into, an empty coffee can, while signing away...sorry if I wasn't clear about that, folks.
...craig :thumb:

[JMJ]

i hate this topic

no offense to you at all brother craig, just get tired of the roids n baseball talk

it's an unfair advantage, plain n simple

anyone who thinks otherwise is looking the other way

[chefcraig]

i hate this topic

no offense to you at all brother craig, just get tired of the roids n baseball talk

it's an unfair advantage, plain n simple

anyone who thinks otherwise is looking the other way



No offense taken, my friend.

Honestly, this is the way it has gone in my particular camp...I find the opinions refreshing and strong in their candor, yet surprisingly varied.

Be well.

...craig :thumb:

[JMJ]

i think canseco is an idiot

and i also think 75% of his book is true...think about that...it's sad

[chefcraig]

i think canseco is an idiot

and i also think 75% of his book is true...think about that...it's sad


I'd rather think about the long ball that bounced off of his head at the warning track and caused a home run.

Now that is karma at work.

Why is that clip not being shown, during all of this?
Certainly would be funny to see again, in any event! :bounce:

"Doink!" :brickwall .."Hey, where'd the ball go?" :confused:

I thought that stuff only happened on "The Simpsons"! :D


Leaving him out of it, as I said, sorry I helped get this off track...

Maybe I should have established a simple poll on this, yet what does one learn from numbers (especially when one considers the brain-trust that see's a poll and simply "must" vote, even when they know not of the thrust of it?)?

By the way, I am not working tomorrow! :drunk:

...craig :thumb:

[BREW CREW]

From what I've read and heard, roids are a definite plus. They help the fast twitch muscles which is a major plus in hitting because of increased bat speed.Yet, increased bat speed doesn't mean much unless there is velocity with it, and great eyes to see the ball in the first place. It's timing to say the least, and I can't really believe there is a drug or enhancer besides contacts, glasses and RK surgery to make someone see better. As far as timing: instincts and training help more than anything. Strength...weight training, great workouts and roids. Hitting home-runs is a huge factor in baseball, it is like a friggin touchdown, slam dunk, hockey goal and a hole in one. Desperation might make someone take drugs to think they are better and have confidence to do the job. Baseball is just as phsycological as physical.
Jose is becoming a freak! He just wants uneeded attention and more money IMO :irked: He doesn't realize he is hurting baseball and possibly peoples lives.
craig: show that clip!

[chefcraig]

Wish I could post and view that clip...sadly, my computer is "hampster-driven"... :brickwall

Even a picture would be great! :bounce:

...craig :D

[OLO]

Do I think MLB players have taken roids in the past - Yes.
Do I think Barry Bonds took roids when he broke the record - Yes.
Can we prove he was on roids when he broke the record - No. Unless we can prove this there should be no asterisk next to his name.
Do I think Mark Maguire was on roids when he broke the record - Yes. Once again we cant prove this so no astericks.
Is Jose a big dumb attention whore that is bitter because he is no longer the man - Yes.

[BREW CREW]

Is Jose a big dumb attention whore that is bitter because he is no longer the man - Yes. Show the ball hitting his head! DO IT! :eek:
ESPN needs to show this all the while players are defending themselves in split screen!
Canseco said he shot roids in Big Macs ass in the toilet stalls in Oakland, I think he was a peek-a-boo and wanted to shoot a load in Mac's ass. :sssh: :scared:
That is poopy! :(

[OLO]

Show the ball hitting his head! DO IT! :eek:
ESPN needs to show this all the while players are defending themselves in split screen!
Canseco said he shot roids in Big Macs ass in the toilet stalls in Oakland, I think he was a peek-a-boo and wanted to shoot a load in Mac's ass. :sssh: :scared:
That is poopy! :(


I thought the same thing when I heard about him sticking Mac in the ass in a stall. Hmmmm what was Jose sticking big Mac with?? :sssh:

I have some good friends that played NCAA football and a few of them went on the play in the NFL. All of these guy have admitted to taking roids at some time or another. Not one of them did it in front of another player or ever asked the guy ti stick him in the ass. My Best friend in the world Scott was on the Juice while playing for a VERY GOOD NCAA program that shall go nameless due to the fact we have enough problems at said school with violations being broken. He showed me his kit and the juice a few times. I wanted to see him shoot himself, he would not do it in front me. The needles were very small, maybe a 1/2 long. Each of these guys agree's that they helped there carriers but they also do fear complications down the road.

[sisca]

Canseco is a whiny bitch just looking for attention now that he's no longer a star....fuck him. sure players may have used 'roids, which isn't cool, but why rat them out?? it's done, it happened, records were broken and thats it. i don't condone performance enhancing drugs in any way, but the past is the past. we cant prove who used what, even though it's sooo obvious. theyre testing for it now and you know what? baseball is still the best sport ever!!!!!!!

[ZeoBandit]

Do I think MLB players have taken roids in the past - Yes.
Do I think Barry Bonds took roids when he broke the record - Yes.
Can we prove he was on roids when he broke the record - No. Unless we can prove this there should be no asterisk next to his name.
Do I think Mark Maguire was on roids when he broke the record - Yes. Once again we cant prove this so no astericks.
Is Jose a big dumb attention whore that is bitter because he is no longer the man - Yes.

Well put.

[Red]

No asterisks, let it ride.

No tolerance in the future. Baseball allowed this to fester for a long time.

Canseco will sleep with the fishes. Nobody likes a rat. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if he met the same fate as "Big Pussy". :eek:

[billy007]

I don't think asterisks are in order. There are plenty of other events in baseball that could be argued have been tainted through the years, whether it's Gaylord Perry's spit balls or just players performing better due to better equipment. What's done is done, and allegations are kind of hard to prove at this time. If those players did mess, hopefully they are able to sleep at night knowing what they did.

[Dr5115]

Basically it's cheating........................

Look at the pics of these guys in their mid to late 20's and then look at them in their late 30's. Most guys don't add that kind of mass in their LATE 30's. Look not only at the # of HR's but also the distance of the HR's. Bonds hit more HR's further after the age of 35 than before. http://usera.imagecave.com/Dr5115/bsflag.gif

Bottom line is that they took em, they knew what they were taking AND they would of never gotten close to the records Without the juice = CHEATING. So yes they would get an Asterick in my book.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Dr5115/2171260_7_3.jpg

[SuckaInA3Piece]

These are superior athletes here, so adding 15-20lbs of muscle isn't that hard for alot of them. I see boxers do it all the time, so Bonds adding all that mass really doesn't suprise me. That said, we still all know he was on the juice. Wether it was the clear or the cream, that boy was buttering himself up for sure.

Your point about how far the balls are hit these days is a bit of a stretch though. I think it has more to do with the fact that the balls are juiced up, and have been for years now. Take into account the ease of hitting them since most ballparks are about the size of my backyard, and that the bats are juiced up as well, you're gonna get a lot of dingers hit a long way. It's just ashame that the guys that hit them that far might be using enhancements.

[TheresOnlyOneWay]

Jose is doing it for money. He's admitting the 'roids now and ratting out teamates because it's gonna sell him some books. Can you still stay at his house and hang out with him for $5,000?

[Viking]

All sports should do what Track and Field has done. Test positive once: Lifetime ban. That simple. The records are tainted, but there's no way to prove it now so they should stand. I always had a suspicion that McGuire, Sosa and Bonds were on the juice anyways.

[ChargerDave]

My favorite player was Rod Carew and this makes me appreciate his accomplishments that much more.

[TommyK]

I like Conseco back when he was an A. After he left them he didnt do much but be on bloopers of baseball. Since Roids have been big of late might as well bring a book into it to make money. If I knew players that did roids i would not talk at it. I would keep it to myself. People trust me. And thats they way i am. To me Jose is a complete ass. I wish baseball was a clean sport but it is not. Baseball is the one sport i love to play and watch. I know anybody in anything will always try to get an edge. To me i wish his book would go away and the press shut thier mouths on it. Then it would go away.

[csm5150]

I am not a fan of baseball (excluding LSU baseball), but here's my take. Jose is basically doing what Pete Rose did-he's releasing a book right before a big event (i.e. spring training and the whole roid "scandal"). Are there players using juice-YES! Until recently, there was no real penalty. Now, there's not much of a penalty is there-suspended, what, 5 games for a positive test? Its not like the NFL where you are suspended for one quarter of the season. Granted, they play different amounts of games.

[SuckaInA3Piece]

I agree csm, but atleast if they're suspended, their names will be printed in every media outlet. I don't like the amount of games they get suspended, because as you pointed out, it's really just a slap on the wrist. But if a guy were to test positive, everybody would know now.

I'm glad MLB stepped up and atleast did something. Unfortunately steroids is still a HUGE problem in minor league baseball.

[billy007]

It'll take a little while for it to filter down. It's hard to stop people from doing something, no matter how stupid it is, when there's no penalty. Hell, it's hard enough to get some people to comply when there is a penalty! But when they start missing out on those 15 million dollar a year contracts, maybe the message will get across!

[TopTimi]

My favorite player was Rod Carew and this makes me appreciate his accomplishments that much more.
Hey great point. Gotta love Rod from that era, and Brett. As a longtime ball player, I never took roids, but I don't think it would have made a difference. The timing, swing, eye, hand technique is first before power. A long ball hitter will most certainly have advantage with the roids, IF , all other techniques are intact.
I would much rather see a hitter like Carew, Brett, Suzuki really play the game for all its worth and go for the base hits plus more. The big boys don't impress me too much these days. Actually, it takes a lot to impress me in the current MLB.
I prefer a good AA/AAA game where the players are kickin' their own asses to make the Bigs. When I played in the LLWS we had many a hero to look up to. Now that Edgar Martinez retired, I can only look to a short handful.

[Majestic]

People get on Bonds for getting bigger, but atleast he's done it over time.

He's hit homers all his life, yes.

But he also added 25 lbs. over a 4 month off-season (at a time when his natural testosterone levels should be declining), and went from averaging around 39 homers or so, to whacking 73.

The guy's got so much D-Bol bloat, he's holding more water than Lake Michigan.

As for Brew Crew: bud, ALL of these guys can hit the ball. Gear helps an already finely-tuned athlete in so many ways, it's not even funny.

Let's pretend for a minute that there weren't instantaneous (within 5-10 days) gigantic strength/speed gains with a very basic, elementary steroid like Dianabol, let's just consider their recuperative properties. Imagine playing not only every game, but every INNING at 100% of your physical potential.

It's sure easier on someone *mentally* when their body feels like a trillion bucks.

These guys have higher test. levels than your average 16 year-old male, but posess the wisdom, patience, and experience of someone 35-40.

Think about the feats you pulled off when you were 18, whether it was the food you ate, the sex you had, the rate at which you recovered from a muscle pull, or even the amount of natural oil in your skin, keeping it soft.

My arms used to fill-up with blood and fluids just from combing my hair when I was that age. Now I have to work my balls-off in the gym to even get a pump, and I'm only 29.

[Dr5115]

Well put Majestic

I was trying to make the same point with Bonds. He was a very good ball player before the age of 35. He was a GREAT ball player after age 35. HMMMM?????????

The same could be said of Big Mac and SOSA. In the years when most players decline in their statistics, these guys improved.

As far as the argument that these guys can hit anyway. Sure they can hit; however, maybe 1/4-1/3 of their HR's are not HR's anymore, they are fly balls that are caught.

Strength = Bat Speed
Bat Speed = Distance

For 70+ years if someone had 30 HR's a year it was a GREAT year. Only a small number of players hit 50+ HR's a year for the same period.

Fast forward to the Late 90's, all of a sudden numerous guys are hitting 50 60 and 70 HR's a year?

IMO allowing this to happen is an insult to the VERY few who achieved this without the juice.

[ebmm_axis]

Whenever I think of Canseco, I remember the guy playing right field that misjudged a fly ball and let it bounce off his head and over the wall for a home run. :D

His book is probably going to be 50% true, I would guess, though...

Should the new homerun records have asterisks next to them? I don't think so. It was allowed in the rules of baseball. If any asterisk should be included it should say "*records broken under allowed and sanctioned steroid use my the MLB."

One thing I KNOW for sure, ALL baseball managers, presidents, execs KNEW about the steroid use. It was NEVER a secret or a surprise.

[Majestic]

Well put Majestic

I was trying to make the same point with Bonds. He was a very good ball player before the age of 35. He was a GREAT ball player after age 35.

Bonds was Hall of Fame player before the juice, and a friggin' patiently powerful freak afterwards. The "juiced" Bonds is the single greatest offensive weapon that ever lived, and 2nd place isn't even close.

Ignore the homers for a minute....the guy's OBP is illegally excellent.

[BREW CREW]

Bonds was Hall of Fame player before the juice, and a friggin' patiently powerful freak afterwards. The "juiced" Bonds is the single greatest offensive weapon that ever lived, and 2nd place isn't even close.

Ignore the homers for a minute....the guy's OBP is illegally excellent.Because the managers are pussies and will not pitch to him....I don't really blame them though! :eek:

[Balanced Rock]

ESPN just mentioned Clemens, Wilson Alvarez and Brett Boone in the Conseco book discussion. I think there are a lot of guys losing sleep right about now.

As far as an asterisk for Bonds and McGuire goes, their asterisk will be in the form of a sort of invisible scarlet letter. As the latest ESPN poll showed, Maris is still considered the single season home run champ. Gotta love it...

[BREW CREW]

I think that Giambi is going to look for Jose Canseco and beat his ass! Among a ton of other players, did you see out-takes from the 60 Minutes interview?? Canseco is fucking LYING, look at his mannerisms, and eyes when he is asked the tough questions...he is all over the place! What a dope!
Anything for attention! :yell:

[OLO]

ESPN just mentioned Clemens, Wilson Alvarez and Brett Boone in the Conseco book discussion. I think there are a lot of guys losing sleep right about now.

As far as an asterisk for Bonds and McGuire goes, their asterisk will be in the form of a sort of invisible scarlet letter. As the latest ESPN poll showed, Maris is still considered the single season home run champ. Gotta love it...

It would not shock me one bit if Boone was on the juice. When Boone came back to Seattle in 2000 or 2001 he was much larger in the chest and arms than he was the previous Summer with the Reds. During Spring training he was asked during a interview about this, He said he worked out all Summer with a trainer. I didnt buy then and I dont buy it now. You dont put that kind of size and weight on in four months without the help of steroids. Boone is not nearly as large as Bonds, Sosa or Giambi but he got much larger.

[jrk5150]

No asterix. We don't put an asterix next to guys we know cheated in other ways.

Corked bats give a tremendous advantage, they've been used forever. Especially back in the days of thick handled bats that never broke - you'd never be caught.

Spit balls? We celebrate the old spit ball/scuff ball guys even though they cheated.

Not to mention that pretty much every player, even today, slugs down amphetimines like they were going out of style. That goes way back too. You think Pete Rose did all that on his own? He was high as a kite on some kind of speed every game, felt NO pain.

Roids are an absolute advantage, both for strength which equals bat speed, and perhaps even more importantly, for the physical recovery time they allow. Guys stay fresher in a long season.

Another reason not to asterix is that a lot of pitchers are throwing a lot harder due to roids, too. Faster pitches, faster bats, may just even out a bit, eh?

[Wolfgang Van Halen]

There is no reason to give Jose any credit. He built his career on illegal drugs, basked in the glory of his accomplishments (even though he knew he was cheating), accepted the credit as if he deserved it, and now that he is broke, he rats out his former teammates for a few bucks.....

At least McGwire was trying to avoid the spotlight, knowing that he was cheating. I always wondered why McGwire was so reserved and almost seemed embarrassed by the attention etc. I guess it's because he knew what he was doing.

It's like Carl "The Rat" Lewis when Ben got caught, and Carl crucified him in the media. Years later we find out that Carl failed a number of anti-doping tests, but the USOC still sent him to the Olympics.

[Dr5115]

No asterix. We don't put an asterix next to guys we know cheated in other ways.

Corked bats give a tremendous advantage, they've been used forever. Especially back in the days of thick handled bats that never broke - you'd never be caught.

Spit balls? We celebrate the old spit ball/scuff ball guys even though they cheated.

Not to mention that pretty much every player, even today, slugs down amphetimines like they were going out of style. That goes way back too. You think Pete Rose did all that on his own? He was high as a kite on some kind of speed every game, felt NO pain.

Roids are an absolute advantage, both for strength which equals bat speed, and perhaps even more importantly, for the physical recovery time they allow. Guys stay fresher in a long season.

Another reason not to asterix is that a lot of pitchers are throwing a lot harder due to roids, too. Faster pitches, faster bats, may just even out a bit, eh?


Other guys certainly have cheated; however, I don't think the abvove mentioned examples broke long standing records like the steroids/HR's have done. IMO

[Buschman]

...Conseco is a BOOB!!!

[Wolfgang Van Halen]

I agree that alot of guys are juiced on roids in MLB. But Canseco's claim of 80% ??? I don't think so...too many lanky pitchers and middle infielders.

McGwire wasn't a 'small' guy when he broke in the majors in '87. He was listed at 6'5 and 225 lbs (according to his baseball cards). The yr he hit 70 HR's, he was listed at 250 lbs- a gain of about 25 lbs. Gaining that amount of muscle over the course of several years without steroids is highly acheivable. He always had big forearms- I still have a copy of S.I. ('89 I believe) that mentioned how big his forearms actually were. I don't think a guy like him needed roids to get big- he was naturally big framed. Now a guy like Bonds...he was about 160 lbs in '86 and is now listed at 230 lbs....a difference of 70 lbs! But even more dramatic is the muscle gains in the last 5 yrs. I remember seeing a collection of photos from MLB spotlighting Bonds and Giambi's physical transformation in the last few yrs and I couldn't believe how dramatic Bonds' change was. To see photo after photo in a time lapse fashion was very eye opening. If you ever get a chance to see this photo montage, you'll see what I mean. These photos were up at around the time of the whole BALCO thing.

I would like to see a big name player get caught...but there has to conclusive proof. Until then, it's just speculation.

[Bob_R]

60 Minutes has asked Major League Baseball to respond to Canseco's interview on 60 Minutes Wednesday, at 8 p.m. ET/PT.

BTW, I think Canseco is a juevnile, disgruntled asshole.

[OLO]

I really hope the press gets tired of Canseco and his book very fast. I would hate for this season to darkend by Jose and his lame book. Time for the press to concentrate on Baseball and not this washed up juice monster.

PLAY BALL!!!

[chefcraig]

So as early as 1994, the FBI warned MLB about steroids?

Why does the issue of the league turning a blind eye to this NOT the main story, and Jose Conseco IS?

What about baseball's complicity in this mess? Where is an official statement from Bud Selig, not some soundbites from a hallway?

Where is an official investigation into this scandal?

Ooops, I forgot...this is Major League Baseball. If we can shoot ourselves in the foot, we will. :brickwall

...craig :rolleyes:

[BottomzUp]

I think that Giambi is going to look for Jose Canseco and beat his ass! Among a ton of other players, did you see out-takes from the 60 Minutes interview?? Canseco is fucking LYING, look at his mannerisms, and eyes when he is asked the tough questions...he is all over the place! What a dope!
Anything for attention! :yell:

I am not defending him at all but a fact is that Jose has had a twitch/tick all of his life. It is much better than it was years ago. The fucker was always twitching and winking. I was actually impressed on 60 minutes. He did it MUCH less than he used to.

[BottomzUp]

The Yankees are classic! Cashman on friday says that they would NEVER leave the word steroid off of ANYONE'S contract. They were supposedly sticking by Giambi's side(no pun intended) in good faith!
Ummmm NOPE...the truth has come out. At the request of Giambi's agent, the word 'steroid' was omitted from his contract in numerous places.
Cashman...what a little weasel! Talk about being busted in a lie! Gee...no wonder they are supporting him!

[VanHalenMetallica]

Jose Conseco is coming off like a gold digger to me.He probably has a vendetta towards Selig.I never did like the guy.I wish he'd stayed trapped in that burning house in That one Simpsons episode ;) .


I had a trading card of Barry Bonds for the 1999 season.On his stats it read:

Ht: 6'2'' LBS: 190.He looked just about his.He hit about 34 homers or something.The next season the guy looked completely different,he looked huge! and year after year he kept looking larger.It makes me wonder.Though I'm a Dodger fan,I'm suppose to look at Giants in a negative sense ;)

[ShutUpNPlayYer Guitar]

It brings back a lot of good memories looking at old baseball cards....back in the day when baseball was mostly a "clean" sport. Remember when Cecil Fielder was a modern day legend hitting 50 HR, being 300 pounds of fat?
Ryno hitting 40 for a second basemen!!, not a ripped fella whatsoever. Remember Eric Davis having the sweetest homerun swing....being 160lbs??

Then I look at the rookie cards of Sammy, Barry, Mac, hell, even Brett Boone! ...and I laugh. Don't give me that b.s Larusa, that their bodies are a result of "hard work". Of course they worked out quite a bit...but with a 162 game season they certainly need a substitute to repair injuries quickly!but they ended up breaking down often too as a result of the juice. It is fucking impossible to gain 40-60 lbs of muscle when you are age 25-40!! (not to metion have your hat size increase a 1/2")

It sucks that Selig can't speak about the current situation, but he has his VP (which was the Oakland A's general manager during the "bash brother" era) talk to the press today...what a puss.

My thoughts are that MLB thinks that the average baseball fan is a beer drinking, Wrigley Field bleacher, girl watching prick. They don't really care that we see a fair played baseball game...we've become accustomed seeing the artificial 500ft homerun..and why would they want to change that??? Steroids were a money maker for MLB (see 1998 hr results! a 50% increase from the 1990 season when Cecil hit his 50) The new steroid penalties are a crock of shit....1st offense should be an 81 game suspension not a 3-4 game series!!!

[billy007]

"I think it's fair to say that Major League Baseball could have been more hard-nosed about their approach, but it's more fair to say that even any effort that they made, or would have made, would have been rebuffed by the players association," La Russa said. "... Why does the players' association do things that is really not in the best interest of the game as a whole? They're really concerned with their constituents." - Tony LaRussa (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1992667)

That's all you need to know right there. The players and their representation have fought long and hard against any type of testing, and so you get what we got, and you get what little testing policy they were able to finally get through this year. Again, just like the athletes of the NHL - they just don't see the big picture. And while MLB Baseball is in less danger of going down like the NHL could, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Maybe when some of these other athletes have one those NHL guys ringing their doorbell in a UPS uniform, it will start to sink in that they've got it pretty good and should do what they can to preserve it. And pissing off the fans by either bleeding 'em dry or damaging their trust in you is not the way to preserve it!

[JMJ]

anyone who thinks canseco is full of shit needs to wake up. i don't doubt his stories at all

be cool if fans said fuck baseball and no one went to the games..LMAO

[SuckaInA3Piece]

anyone who thinks canseco is full of shit needs to wake up. i don't doubt his stories at all

be cool if fans said fuck baseball and no one went to the games..LMAO

I don't think that all of his stories are shit, but if you believe that his word is gold, I think you need to wake up as well dude. Here's a guy that openly cheated the game, and I'm supposed to believe every word that comes out of his mouth? I don't think so. This guy has no credibility with me, but I don't doubt that some of his stories may be true.

[Wray]

I don't think that all of his stories are shit, but if you believe that his word is gold, I think you need to wake up as well dude. Here's a guy that openly cheated the game, and I'm supposed to believe every word that comes out of his mouth? I don't think so. This guy has no credibility with me, but I don't doubt that some of his stories may be true.

What makes me wonder is the fact that the few that are making the accusations have obvious agendas. Jose Canseco, Barry Bonds' "former mistress?" These people have absolutely zero credibility.

[ShutUpNPlayYer Guitar]

I don't think we need these people to tell us the obvious! The physical changes in baseball players this day and age is outrageous. Credibility of a "former mistress" means nothing to me when an obvious physical change in Bonds is evident for the entire world to "speculate" steroids are in his system.

I know Canseco and a boatload of other money hungry bastards aren't right in the head, but I believe they do tell some truth about the situation....it's not like we didn't know there was something fishy about Bond's head size, biceps, homerun power surge vs. stolen base decline (which I find the most interesting of all)

I'm saying Canseco potentially started something positive for major league baseball....players are scared, continue to shrink *cough* Sammy Sosa, Jeff Bagwell,
and are totally covering up any evidence that could get out to the public. We'll see if this season blows up when Bonds closes in on Aarons record. I heard Selig TELL us we should "...celebrate this record just as we have celebrated other records in the past." ARE WE THAT STUPID, BUD? this WILL be the most controvercial record EVER. The real baseball fans will be disgusted if this happens.

[chefcraig]

be cool if fans said fuck baseball and no one went to the games..LMAO

Well...this has already occurred, after the player's strike in the mid-90's.

Then the Florida Marlins won the World Series, and were sold off piece by piece by an owner by who's name I will fail to dignify by mentioning.

What brought me personally back to baseball?

The great home run chase of '98.

As a fan (and by the way, there are many true baseball fans responding to this thread), I feel used.

Sorry guys, I do.

Maybe not so much used, yet kind of "let down", or failed...it truly is hard to put into words.

Since the Pete Rose deal, then Bart Giiamatti dropping dead, I've had trouble with the "business" side of baseball...and frankly, I wish I had never even seen or heard of it.

I never even thought of it as a kid in the 60's and 70's.
I wish I could simply turn on the radio and listen to a game and not have it even brought up.

Yes, I'd like to turn a blind-eye to it...much like Bud Selig would. I'd like to turn a blind eye to my outstanding debts, cable, electrical bills, ect. also.

Yet there is an inherant responsibility here.

Wishing something away will not make it so. Pretending it never happened will have the same result.

One can try to run from one's mistakes, yet they always catch up, until you stand up, be a man and acknowledge: "Yes, I fucked up. I am at fault. Let me learn from this."

And move on with your life.

You simply can't change the past, or apply asterisks (I was wasted when I wrecked that car, otherwise...I would not have...well, DUH!).

I really want to sit in the stands, or before that...listen to the radio or tv, and spend an afternoon, witnessing the simple art of the game.

That's my final words on this subject, and I'm the one who brought it up.

...craig

[billy007]

craig knows. Yeah, I kinda liked the days when nobody gave a shit who made what, it certainly wasn't "statistical news". The days before "I'm better than player x so I expect to be paid like it". The days before player/managers gambling, players being caught using drugs or steroids.
1994 put a big dent in my fandom. After - oh, I forget how many - strikes and threats of strikes since 1981 (and really I remember a threat of a lockout in '76, too), this one was the last straw. Wasn't the dinger that brought me back, that's for sure - was the love of the game, a love that's ingrained too deep to be ruined by greedy players and owners, the designated hitter, interleague play, games in Japan and Mexico and who knows where the fuck else they'll play regular season games next, the Homeless Expos saga, the contraction threat, cocaine, "The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim", overdone loud ballpark music, the haves and have-nots, extramarital affairs, hookers, BALCO, ads on nearly every square inch of the ballpark and almost on uniforms and bases and whatever else they can think up to try and smudge the game. No, it's a love of sitting in a ball park somewhere, under a warm sky, watching two teams play the game of baseball at its best, or listening on an AM radio to a game far away. The dreams of hitting the road again to visit these palaces of "Play Ball".
So fuck Canseco and his kind. He's had his say - now shut up about him and let's get down to getting ready for what will hopefully be a great 2005 season.

[BREW CREW]

craig knows.
let's get down to getting ready for what will hopefully be a great 2005 season.AMEN! WE know the importance, now will MLB follow? IMO, the history of this great game should out-weigh that of what some numbnut is portraying it to be.
A good question: will the media follow what we believe? :confused:

[JMJ]

hey sucka-relax man...not gettin any pussy? :D :p i wasn't callin u out directly

i never said his word was "gold". from the side of the stories about steroids, i believe him. as far as mistresses or fuckin women or whatever else may be int he book i could fucking care less. that shit happends in everyday life, i don't need to read his book to see it.

the fact of the matter is this, baseball has done nothing to address the issue, and here we are. is it kinda lame canseco is ratting peole out? sure i guess u could make a point for that. but he is, and has a right to. i still don't see any defemation of character or libel suits being filed by any of these guys he accused. if i'm pude rodriguez and never used roids, i'm all over his ass ya know? it speaks volumes.

canseco is a jackass, but this jackass brought the story full circle. steroids aren't his fault, he's just a very small part of a bigger problem

[SuckaInA3Piece]

hey sucka-relax man...not gettin any pussy? :D :p i wasn't callin u out directly

i never said his word was "gold". from the side of the stories about steroids, i believe him. as far as mistresses or fuckin women or whatever else may be int he book i could fucking care less. that shit happends in everyday life, i don't need to read his book to see it.

the fact of the matter is this, baseball has done nothing to address the issue, and here we are. is it kinda lame canseco is ratting peole out? sure i guess u could make a point for that. but he is, and has a right to. i still don't see any defemation of character or libel suits being filed by any of these guys he accused. if i'm pude rodriguez and never used roids, i'm all over his ass ya know? it speaks volumes.

canseco is a jackass, but this jackass brought the story full circle. steroids aren't his fault, he's just a very small part of a bigger problem


Oh I know you weren't callin me out fuckstick. You know your role. :devil:

[JMJ]

u can take your roody poo candy ass and stuff it :D

[Wray]

Credibility is still in point, J. Just because we know the basic premise of steroids being a problem doesn't mean we should blindly string up every player that Canseco accuses.

[JMJ]

no one here is blindly stringing up every player he is accusing.

is jose's credibility great? prolly not, i mean look at the shit he's done on and off the field. but that doesn't mean the stuff in his book is all bullshit either. he knows a hell of a lot more than you or i do about what goes on.

look at david wells. wells is a fuckin nut-been in trouble with all kinds of shit-has a drinkin problem. got his ass kicked in a bar in NY one night. he writes a book and people think it's funny cuz boomer wrote it.

people are upset at jose cuz there's a lot of truth to it

[Wray]

I don't doubt that some of what he says is true; however, I also don't doubt that he's taking full advantage of the situation either. Steroid speculation was at it's peak just before this book was released.

He's hurting financially. This book is his livelihood. He's fabricated much of it, and flat out making shit up in some cases to sell his book. No doubt in my mind.

[BREW CREW]

I don't doubt that some of what he says is true; however, I also don't doubt that he's taking full advantage of the situation either. Steroid speculation was at it's peak just before this book was released.

He's hurting financially. This book is his livelihood. He's fabricated much of it, and flat out making shit up in some cases to sell his book. No doubt in my mind.Someone that takes full advantage of calling out your teamates, managers, and MLB in this fashion should be..well, ya know!!!
If he is hurting financially, and this is his livelihood, maybe he should have had a better friend base...and get some fucking HELP first before blasting baseball. He forgot that a lot of people think that baseball is the greatest American past-time ever.
I doubt that he was ever at County Stadium (or any that allows) during a tailgaiting party to see the friendships and fans having perhaps the greatest times of their MLB fans type lives...it goes on and on! The charcoal smoke rising at a tailgating party is priceless..does Canseco know that?

[Wray]

Someone that takes full advantage of calling out your teamates, managers, and MLB in this fashion should be..well, ya know!!!

BREW makes a good point. It's the method that damns Canseco's credibility more than anything. I haven't read the book, but taking into account his personality combined with the interviews that he's given, his motives have nothing to do with exploiting a problem to help save the face of the game that we all love. It seems to be more about money and personal vendettas.

[JMJ]

he does need money, and maybe he does have vendettas. that's not the issue. this isn't about canseco. thjis is about a bigger problem-steroids in baseball, and pro sports for that matter

[Balanced Rock]

he does need money, and maybe he does have vendettas. that's not the issue. this isn't about canseco. thjis is about a bigger problem-steroids in baseball, and pro sports for that matter

:thumb:

[Wray]

he does need money, and maybe he does have vendettas. that's not the issue. this isn't about canseco. thjis is about a bigger problem-steroids in baseball, and pro sports for that matter

It most certainly is an issue. It has everything to do with whether he might be accusing innoncent players or not. You're falling into the trap that I mentioned from the beginning: Believing Canseco simply because we know the basic premise of steroids being a problem. That's irresponsible to you, the players and the game. Aiming a gun while blindfolded certainly isn't a good way to take out the problem.

[JMJ]

as a fan of the game, it's not my job to worry about if he's accusing an innocent player, i can't do anytihng about that. as someone who buys merchandise, orders games on tv, goes to the ballpark, etc, that pisses me off. i want a fair and balanced game, the players and major league baseball owe that to me!!! and every other fan out there. we give baseball players their livelihood. if someone is dumb enough to get themselves into this mix, they don't need us to defend them. people sling shit all the time in sports. he did this, she did that, he used this, she cheated here, he's a not a good father to his kids, he has no will. people don't like it cuz it's jose canseco. if derek jeter wrote a book like this everyone would do cartwheels over it.

people are always trying to find an out, it's so sad. he may be accusing inncent people. cry me a river. these guys can fight for themselves if they are innocent, they're big grown up fellers with the means to do so. i still see no lawsuits against jose. innocent people being accused comes with the territory, it's not right, but it happens and people need to get over it. it amazes me as fans of baseball, that some of us are worried about who may be being accused while innocent, instead of the bigger picture. it's paradigms like that which have made baseball go in the direction it has from the people who run it

[Wray]

If you're going to use Canseco's book as an illustration, it is your job to worry about it. It's not about needing our defense because it's the basic postulation of 'Innocent until proven guilty.'

You keep saying how it's too bad that innocent players might be targeted and that we should look at the bigger picture. You don't skip over essential elements to get to the bigger picture. It accomplishes the exact opposite. We have to take this into perspective and make sure that we don't turn it into a witch hunt like Canseco wants it to be. That will do nothing to better the game.

[JMJ]

If you're going to use Canseco's book as an illustration, it is your job to worry about it. It's not about needing our defense because it's the basic postulation of 'Innocent until proven guilty.'

You keep saying how it's too bad that innocent players might be targeted and that we should look at the bigger picture. You don't skip over essential elements to get to the bigger picture. It accomplishes the exact opposite. We have to take this into perspective and make sure that we don't turn it into a witch hunt like Canseco wants it to be. That will do nothing to better the game.

the essential elements are players abusing the system and the game. that is the big picture. it's essential that people be held accountable, and they have not been. his book makes people think and look outside the box.

i could care less about witch hunting. this isn't salem. this is about steroids in baseball. why is this so hard to understand?

thing is, canseco is crazy enough to write this book, and he did just that. i'm sure there are other players who have thought about doing the samed, but haven't for various reasons. i wish other people would step upto the plate and do the same. tony larussa just said he knew canseco was using em. it's ok for him to say that cuz for one, it makes him look honest now, and two, it's ok to say jose used em cuz jose admitted to it and he's the baseball poster boy for a jackass ya know? i doubt you'll see larussa admitting to any knowledge he had/has of other players using them. the fbi did a probe for years. now when other names get leaked from probes, and ther players/managers begin to drop names, does that too mean they'll be on a witch hunt?

these cats are being exposed for what they are-cheats, and i don't feel sorry for em in the least

[Wray]

That's fine, J. You can continue to form definitive conclusions based on circumstantial evidence and books intent on moneymaking and perduring personal vendettas, but I won't do it. I have my own suspicions, just as anyone else does, but I'll continue to remain objective until I see some unambiguous proof on a player-by-player basis.

[JMJ]

yer a hero then wray..LMAO

u'll never get player by player proof. there's too much money to be made in the sport. you want proof on a player by player basis? good gawd u must be kidding wray

[Wray]

So steroids is a collaborative conspiracy now? Let's keep this at a non-comedic level, shall we?

Anyway, commence the witch-hunt. :)

[JMJ]

wonder if randy johnson is on roids?

[Majestic]

wonder if randy johnson is on roids?

No, I highly doubt he's not on gear. You cannot tell by size (unless the athlete is training for hypertrophy), but still, I doubt it.

Moving on to other players......

Pudge lost 22 lbs. this offseason, and claims to have been doing cardio & watching what he eats for the first time since.....well.....forever.

Still, it will be interesting to monitor his numbers, especially since the Tigers have only gotten better/more mature since last season. If Pudge plays significantly worse (I said *significantly*), then the rumors will start flying w/ regards to Canseco's allegations.

[BREW CREW]

Why not test for steroids...is there a problem with testing? :confused:

[rrussou812]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/sportsbusiness/news/story?id=1995915

Apparently now he's willing to sell everything but his soul (I would imagine someone else already owns the right to that :devil: )

It's sad to see someone do this just for $$. It's obvious this guy never respected the game, let alone anyone else.

[JMJ]

No, I highly doubt he's not on gear. You cannot tell by size (unless the athlete is training for hypertrophy), but still, I doubt it.



u obviously didn't get my sarcasm with wraymond there :D

[Wray]

It's sad to see someone do this just for $$. It's obvious this guy never respected the game, let alone anyone else.

That's what makes his accusations so suspect. Had his intentions been to expose a problem to better the game, they'd be much more believable.

[ShutUpNPlayYer Guitar]

I love the game of baseball....always have ALWAYS will. I played college ball and had an opportunity to try out in front of 30 pro scouts at once. My coach recieved letters from the Giants, Reds, Cubs and Pirates saying they will come see a few games that year to take a good look at me and Gene Abbott, our best pitcher.

It was an honor just to be LOOKED at by scouts....and that's why it didn't bother me that I didn't get drafted because it was stated I wasn't *strong* enough to be a shortstop at the next level! I was fast enough, and had the shortstop arm, but my offensive power was lacking. Steroids could have been an option, but since I love the game and hate cheaters, what was the use?

Steroids are a part of baseball...I have an intersting story. This is coming from a high school teammate of mine that was drafted by the Oakland A's. He is a lefty pitcher, 6'2" tall, and only 165 lbs. He was told before the draft by 3 teams, (Yanks, Cards, ChiSox)..that if he did not take some form of steroid, he will not be considered in the draft.. HONESTLY...this was 5 years ago, before all of the BIG talk. He would not move up the system if his weight stayed the same...they wanted him to gain 30 lbs of muscle. That is quite impossible by just lifting weights....and believe me, this kid wasn't strong. But the A's took a chance on him, and he's still in AA ball...still scrawny...still has an 85mph fastball, but has wicked junk, still works his ass off. He loves the game more than anyone I know, and refuses to deteriorate his health in order to be the "prototypical" baseball strongbody. Just something I wanted to share.

.....what about the so called "juiced ball" back when all of these homeruns started leaving the yard....was MLB trying to pull some wool over our eyes??
last I checked, the ball still has string and a rubber core in the center!

I still love the game, but the numbers being produced will tell SOME truth this year

[BREW CREW]

I love the game of baseball....always have ALWAYS will. I played college ball and had an opportunity to try out in front of 30 pro scouts at once. My coach recieved letters from the Giants, Reds, Cubs and Pirates saying they will come see a few games that year to take a good look at me and Gene Abbott, our best pitcher.

It was an honor just to be LOOKED at by scouts....and that's why it didn't bother me that I didn't get drafted because it was stated I wasn't *strong* enough to be a shortstop at the next level! I was fast enough, and had the shortstop arm, but my offensive power was lacking. Steroids could have been an option, but since I love the game and hate cheaters, what was the use?

Steroids are a part of baseball...I have an intersting story. This is coming from a high school teammate of mine that was drafted by the Oakland A's. He is a lefty pitcher, 6'2" tall, and only 165 lbs. He was told before the draft by 3 teams, (Yanks, Cards, ChiSox)..that if he did not take some form of steroid, he will not be considered in the draft.. HONESTLY...this was 5 years ago, before all of the BIG talk. He would not move up the system if his weight stayed the same...they wanted him to gain 30 lbs of muscle. That is quite impossible by just lifting weights....and believe me, this kid wasn't strong. But the A's took a chance on him, and he's still in AA ball...still scrawny...still has an 85mph fastball, but has wicked junk, still works his ass off. He loves the game more than anyone I know, and refuses to deteriorate his health in order to be the "prototypical" baseball strongbody. Just something I wanted to share.

.....what about the so called "juiced ball" back when all of these homeruns started leaving the yard....was MLB trying to pull some wool over our eyes??
last I checked, the ball still has string and a rubber core in the center!

I still love the game, but the numbers being produced will tell SOME truth this yearLinkers: Just so you know, the scrawny guy my brother is talking about was on the cover of the Kane County Cougars program last year, Drew Dickinson..
It is cool to have a kid that I used to throw batting practice to almost in the bigs, but...for him, no juice, no big show. Juice is bad even if you do not take it. :brickwall

[Bob_R]

Credibility is still in point, J. Just because we know the basic premise of steroids being a problem doesn't mean we should blindly string up every player that Canseco accuses.

Excellent point bro.

Just read a snippet today where Canseco accuses Bret Boone of using steriods. Boone denies it. Canseco claims that he hit a double during a spring training game vs. the Mariners in 2001. And upon arriving at 2nd base had a conversation with Boone. And claims that Boone was huge looking blah, blah, blah.

A Minneapolis (I believe) news outlet researched the subject and found that Canseco never reached 2nd base in a preseason game vs. the Mariners in 2001. So, how could have this conversation ever taken place?

I'm sure much of what Jose has written is the truth. But, much of it I believe is his speculation and revenge against players he dislikes.

[Bob_R]

Canseco was in Jersey yesterday promoting his book by signing autographs. Some guy bought 25 copies. :wtf:

[SuckaInA3Piece]

Caught a bit of him on Cold Pizza I think the show was. I hope he watched Barry's press conference yesterday cause he got ripped pretty good. I think that was the only part of that press conference that I actually enjoyed.

[Wray]

A-Rod's All Bulked Up (http://newyorkpost.com/sports/yankees/40326.htm)

A-Rod gained 15 lbs. this offseason. Who's going to be the first to accuse him of steroid use? :sssh: :D

[atomicpunk5150]

A-Rod's All Bulked Up (http://newyorkpost.com/sports/yankees/40326.htm)

A-Rod gained 15 lbs. this offseason. Who's going to be the first to accuse him of steroid use? :sssh: :D

Good for him. It won't matter though. No Team A-Rod has ever played on has won shit. And this year won't be any different.

[Wray]

Good for him. It won't matter though. No Team A-Rod has ever played on has won shit. And this year won't be any different.

Sure, troll. Get back under the bridge.

[BREW CREW]

With chefcraigs blessing, I changed the name of the thread. :)

[Bob_R]

Palmeiro, one of the many players Canseco has accused of using steriods, is contemplating filing a lawsuit.

I say there's no way Palmerio would take steriods AND viagra. :D

[Bob_R]

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) -- The Baltimore Orioles' Rafael Palmeiro is leaving open the possibility of filing a lawsuit against Jose Canseco, who said he introduced the first baseman to steroids in 1992 when both players were with the Texas Rangers.

Canseco cited Palmeiro as a steroid user in his new book. In an interview on the CBS television show ``60 Minutes,'' Canseco said he injected the drug into Palmeiro.

Palmeiro issued a statement last month in which he denied he ever used steroids, and he emphatically backed up that assertion Thursday after his first practice of spring training. Palmeiro also said he's considered hiring the law firm of Orioles owner Peter Angelos to take legal action against Canseco.

``The one thing I can say is I have the best law firm and the best lawyer standing in the wings in Peter Angelos,'' he said. ``I have options available for me. He stands behind me and he's ready. I will look at all my options and I'll decide.''

Palmeiro, 40, ranks among the greatest hitters in baseball history. The four-time All-Star has 551 career homers, 2,922 hits and a .289 batting average. He would prefer to focus on preparing for his 20th big league season, but the topic kept swinging back to steroids during an impromptu interview session in the Baltimore dugout at Fort Lauderdale Stadium.

``I can't worry about those things. Along the way, there's always going to be someone saying something about you, whether it's true or not. You just go on,'' Palmeiro said. ``My job right now is to get ready for baseball. My mind has to be here.''

Orioles manager Lee Mazzilli told Palmeiro that he has the full support of the team.

``It's totally unfair because it's always hearsay,'' Mazzilli said. ``I think in this country you're innocent until proven guilty. They don't have to defend themselves. If you feel good about yourself, you shouldn't worry about what people say.''

Palmeiro is at a loss in trying to figure out why Canseco chose to include him as one of several players that used steroids.

``He and I grew up playing ball together in the Miami area, but we never did anything together other than play on the same team,'' Palmeiro said. ``We went our separate ways after high school and I never saw him again until he was in the big leagues and I was in the minors. He and I have never been close friends or anything. We were teammates, but that's about it.''

Palmeiro initially was concerned that Canseco's accusation might upset his two sons, ages 10 and 14, but that fear was unfounded.

``We were watching TV, and my oldest son saw it on the news. He started laughing,'' Palmeiro said. ``He's like, 'What's this guy saying?' My kids understand that a lot of the stuff is made up. (Canseco) has his reasons for accusing people, and he's got his reasons for writing a book that's trying to bring our game down.

``This game was great to him. He was the only one at fault for destroying himself. He should be thankful that he had an opportunity to play.''

[Wolfman]

Found this tonight surfing some baseball websites and thought I'd share it with you guys. :cool:

An Open Letter To Barry Bonds...

Mr. Bonds,

I normally do not respond to sports figures who talk as if what they say matters, but you have touched my baseball nerve.

I have been following the sport for 55 years. However, over the last ten years I have not spent one dollar of my money on the game.

I refuse to give revenue to the owners, players, or networks who let the sport fall to the level it is at now.

Point number one is cheating, you said you don't know what cheating is, well let me explain it.

Cheating is doing something illegal or immoral to gain an advantage, and YOU DID BOTH !

And, how dare you play the race card with this steroid issue. You were born privileged, you never had a job, you never had to worry where your next paycheck was coming from, never had to struggle for you family, all you did your entire life was play baseball.

You have made over 100 million dollars in you brief life, so please explain to me how being Black has hurt you in America.

I grew up in New York City when Jackie Robinson was clearing the way for guys like you. He was battered verballly and physically, spat upon, his wife and son could not sit in the stands to watch him, for fear of their safety.

He was called the "N" word all of his career, and he did it for about thirty five thousand dollars a year.

He had to work in the off-season to feed his family.

As race cards go, he had all the trump, you are holding nothing.

And by the way, Mark McGwire, Jose Canceso, and most of all Jason Giambi in New York, have take more heat and faced the press more then you have, over 'roids, and last time I looked they were not black.

I especially enjoyed the photo sessions you arranged the last few days, showing you smiling and signing autographs with the kids. You may fool the newcomers to the game, but most of us know the real you and your attitude, but congrats to your PR guy, at least he finally got you out there.

So, Barry, just a word of caution, the cream you were using made your head swell. In your thirties, you didn't care about that, because steroids don't help you, right?

Well that's funny because all the scientific data I read says it adds about 30 feet of distance to a batted ball.

That's why they are called PERFORMANCE ENHANCING !

But I forgot you slept at Holiday Inn Express last night !

Respectfully yours...PETE CATALDO.

[Bob_R]

Excellent find Wolf. Thanks for sharing.

Bonds is a jackass.

[BREW CREW]

I guess I can understand his bitches about Bonds, but I do not understand his comment about how he has been following baseball for 55 years, and has not spent a dollar of his money on the game the last 10 years. I guess my question to him would be, if you are so upset about the game now, then why still follow it? :confused:

[OLO]

Bonds is a arrogant ass. He cant realyl think he is fooling anyone...Can he??

[SuckaInA3Piece]

Bonds is a arrogant ass. He cant realyl think he is fooling anyone...Can he??

LOL Here ya go OLO:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2005214

[scherb]

I saw an interesting piece on Steroids in baseball this morning.
During the 70's there was one 50 HR season. George Foster's in 77.
90's thru the present era there have been 19. That was pretty telling to me.
Honestly I am really split in my opinion and am pretty much a hypocrit.
When looking at the records, which are sacred to the game, it pains me to think that long standing records are falling under the premise that steroids were a contributing factor.
But as a fan, going to the park and watching a game on tv, all I really care about is seeing a good product. I cheered when guys like Giambi went yard at Yankee Stadium. I bought into the whole Sosa / Mcquire race as well. Steroid use never crossed my mind. Somewhat nieve I know.
But for the integrity of the game I hope stronger testing eliminates the need for present fans and future fans to call the game into question.
When I go to to Cooperstown, I hope the guys enshrined in the Hall did it the right way. Bottom line though, I love baseball and will probably never turn my back on the game.

[Wray]

DEA probe links steroids to Panthers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2012044)

COLUMBIA, S.C. -- Investigators probing an alternative medicine doctor want to speak to at least nine current or former members of the Carolina Panthers about possible illegal steroid prescriptions, a Columbia newspaper reported.

Dr. James Shortt, a West Columbia physician, is under investigation for allegedly prescribing steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs, The State said in Sunday editions. The newspaper based its story on court records and sources speaking on condition of anonymity.

Federal agents subpoenaed the Panthers for the addresses and contact information of several players as part of the probe.

"We've known about the investigation into Dr. Shortt for a short period of time and we are still trying to retrieve enough information to comment on it," Carolina general manager Marty Hurney said Sunday. "We certainly are not aware of any of our players testing positive for steroids."

Sources familiar with the investigation told the newspaper that some of the players were on the Panthers team that competed in the 2004 Super Bowl. Neither the paper nor Hurney revealed the identities of the players.

The newspaper said a sworn statement from Dave Lawrence, a State Law Enforcement Division agent, said Shortt has been under investigation since May 2004 when a Columbia bodybuilder told the Drug Enforcement Administration that Shortt had a reputation for readily prescribing steroids for patients in exchange for $1,000.

Four months later, authorities raided Shortt's Health Dimensions office and Congaree Pharmacy near the Columbia Metropolitan Airport. State and federal agents seized computer data, at least 21 boxes of patient and medical records and 256 audio cassettes, search documents obtained by The State show.

[ZeoBandit]

McGwire was silent, refusing to answer questions about his steroid use. That makes me believe that he was juiced up while he was playing.

Sosa said he never used steroids. Bullshit!

[Wray]

Sosa said he never used steroids. Bullshit!

That's why McGwire was silent. Most of the players that did use steroids aren't going to incriminate themselves when most of the public believes they did, regardless.

[Guitar Shark]

That's why McGwire was silent. Most of the players that did use steroids aren't going to incriminate themselves when most of the public believes they did, regardless.

There's the whole criminal prosecution thing they're worried about, too... ;)

[Wray]

There's the whole criminal prosecution thing they're worried about, too... ;)

Nobody is going to get prosecuted through this if they admit to steroid use. Congress' main concern at the moment is finding out how widespread the problem is.

[ZeoBandit]

Yep. Lying under oath is a big no-no!

[TheCaboKid]

Canseco is greatest wasted talent ever in Baseball...had he just played "ball" and NOT get side-tracked with wanting to be a "rock star" he could written his ticket to Cooperstown...

Also, guys are suppose to hit more homeruns in their 20's like Mays, Ted Williams and dimaggio..not your late thirties like Bonds, Big Mac(This in itself proves these guys are on roids).

[BREW CREW]

Canseco is greatest wasted talent ever in Baseball...had he just played "ball" and NOT get side-tracked with wanting to be a "rock star" he could written his ticket to Cooperstown...

Also, guys are suppose to hit more homeruns in their 20's like Mays, Ted Williams and dimaggio..not your late thirties like Bonds, Big Mac(This in itself proves these guys are on roids).Not to defend steroid users, we all know steroids is a problem...but, you can't deny that the work-out regimen of proffesional athletes is much better and more advanced than when Ted Williams, Mays, Bart Star, Kareem played ball. Football players are bigger, basketball players are bigger and faster and so on. The whole point is: make steroids a more punishable offense. Ban the users IMO. Also in my opinion, banning guilty players will not deter innocent players from hitting more home runs and getting bigger later in their careers.

[BREW CREW]

Mr. Manfred is pretty pissed off not being able to say completely what he wants/needs to say. Selig needs to stand up and say...shut the fuck up and let US talk. Congress are using their power to badger in a bad way. I think it is unfair that the U.S. congress has to belittle MLB "leaders" in the way they are.
I watched a little bit with my 8 year old son tonight, and he asked a LOT of questions. One that comes to mind is: "Daddy, why don't those guys(congress) let the baseball guys say the full answer, they just talk instead of listen".
I said, I do not know...kind of upsetting.
BUT everyone "appreciates" everyones time:irked: WTF?

[Wolfman]

Am I the only one who was hoping the rest of the players at the hearing today would jump Canseco and beat the crap out of him? :)

At this point, I think that at the very least, both McGwire and Sosa were juiced, and I'm not making any excuses for them. I really liked Mac, and there was a point where I did like Sammy before he increasingly became a selfish whiner as of late. I feel bad for McGwire, regardless. Not really sure why, but I did enjoy him as a player. However, I think Jose is just a jackass looking for attention and vindication against baseball and other players. I'm sure some cash from the book would be nice in his mind as well. :duh: LOL

[rrussou812]

Am I the only one who was hoping the rest of the players at the hearing today would jump Canseco and beat the crap out of him? :)


I was hoping something would start after Schilling called him a liar out in the open :D

[billy007]

Am I not remembering history correctly? Did not the owners try to get steroid testing before, only to be denied by the players? It was on (mute with subtitles) at the bar last night when I walked in so I caught parts of it, and I'm not a fan of a lot of things that Bud Selig has done, but I'm just wondering why the burden of this problem seems to be resting on him and the owners? Where the hell is Donald Fehr up there to say how he could support the players in their quest to deny testing? Where are the player reps of the time? I saw Jose up there and it said something like "it's too bad the committee couldn't give me immunity or whatever. Now I can't say everything I could". Ass bag!

[BottomzUp]

The hearings lastnight were the best! Selig and Fehr were made to look like such ASSES...not that they need assistance with that. You can be sure that Congress is not done with them.

[Guitar Shark]

Nobody is going to get prosecuted through this if they admit to steroid use. Congress' main concern at the moment is finding out how widespread the problem is.

You're pretty naive if you actually believe that Wray.

[atomicpunk5150]

First of all I was always a big fan of Mark McGwire. I was happy it was him and not Sosa that broke Maris's record. I was really pissed when that jerk Barry Bonds broke McGwire's record in '01. With that being said, whomever advised McGwire before Thursday's Congressional hearing really gave him bad advise. McGwire would have been much better doing one of two things. (A) Either admitting he did steroids outright because most of the world thinks he did them at some point anyway or, (B) state that he never took them (like Sosa did). It is my opinion that he would have been better off stating the latter rather than the former.

If nobody (that McGwire knows of) has any real proof that he took steroids (i.e. video tape) then its really a matter of do you or don't you believe him. Keep in mind than none of us can even fathom what could come of answering any of the governments questions. Nobody really knows what the feds will do with whatever they came away with this past Thursday. So as far as "pleading the fifth" I don't know that I wouldn't have done the same thing.

I do know this, steroids or no steroids you have to be incredibly talented to be a major league caliber ballplayer. I could take all the steroids on the planet, and work out six hours a day and not be able to hit a baseball like Mark McGwire.

If I were McGwire I would explore the possibility of sueing Canseco for slander. Canseco has no proof of anything, and not only is he bringing McGwire and other players into a shitstorm, but he's making money at the expense of his "friends and peers". I would certainly take legal action against him and (if I were McGwire) take whatever settlement I got and donate it to starting a charity to help educate children about the dangers of steroid use.

And at the very least if I were McGwire I would have walked out of those hearings on Thursday and asked Canseco "why did you bring me into this?" (of course we all know why. Nobody would have bought his book if he didn't "name names") and then just maybe I would have punched Canseco right in his face for trying to make money for himself at my expense.

In closing I have this to say to Jose Canseco...Fuck you. All you did with that work of fiction you call an autobiography was destroy a hero to many, many people. You sir, are an opportunistic greedy asshole, who has no respect for your fellow players, (former) friends or the game that made you rich and famous (infamous is more like it). It is obvious that all you care about is money and how much of it you can make by attempting to destroy the lives of others.

May you rot in hell!

[vheddyrmv8]

McGwire did the right thing. You don't want to end up like Canseco who ratted on everyone, of course he should of, but it ruined a lot of his friendships. If McGwire were to admit he used the 'roids, thousands of kids would think that's ok, before I really got into baseball the only players I knew were him and Sosa, and Kirby Puckett. Think if they're are other kids like that. Also that fricking horrible media would be over him like ants on some trash. Being silent is the best way to go so that like you just said, the people can decide what they think he did, even though it's obvious to most people that it looks like he did use them, he left hints saying that so the media can't come after him saying he did take them. You can tell it's destroyed him inside. But it was best for him to be quiet about it.

[Majestic]

Mark McGwire had been a heavy, heavy slugger (from a HR-per-AB standpoint) all of his career. He's had sooooo many injuries, than many people forget how many times he's approached hitting 60 homers.

Sammy wasn't. In fact, he sucked until he was about 30.

On the one hand, McGwire's brother is a serious bodybuilder, and probably has a complete understanding of steroids (I'm a friend of a serious bodybuilder, and have a very GOOD understanding of steroids, for instance).

On the other hand, nobody in their right mind would use Androsteindione, as it's basically been proven worthless. Complete and total sh*t. Not even *nearly* as effective as a pro-hormone, which are now illegal, BTW.

That makes me think that McGwire basically said to his bro, "hey bud, what I can I use that's completely legal according to the government (forget about MLB)?". To which his brother replied, "basically nothing, other than Andro, which doesn't really do anything".

If you look at McGwire, his physique *barely* changed from a 22 year old up until he was 30+. His batting stance sure did, though. He was aiming for 60+ homers as recently as the 1980s, and certainly 1993, until he missed more than half a season. I remember, clear-as-day, reading the Sports Illustrated in 1993 that discussed his switch back to his old "pigeon toed" batting stance, and how he was on pace to whack 60 homers.

Using D-bol, Clenbuterol, and then supplementing it with Andro would be like taking heart medication while bonging cooking oil and melted butter. It doesn't make much sense.

I'm positive that Sammy used Gear. Bonds has admitted to using it, so that's a moot point. The "Cream & Clear" are Gear.

Period.

End game. End of story.

The question is, do we wipe out their records or disqualify them?

As a reminder, there is NO QUESTION that Bonds used Steroids. He ADMITTED IT.

The question is if we should ignore his records. And McGwire's. And even Cecil Fielder's. Without proof, where do you draw the line.

I followed Cecil Fielder's every At-Bat during the 1990 season, when he hit a seemingly IMPOSSIBLE 51 homers. I'm quite positive that the only "secret" he used was Big Macs and Quarter Pounders.

He was certainly a well-kept secret, having been Fred McGriff's backup in Toronto, and then having fled to Japan, to the Hanshin Tigers. But how do we know? We don't. And unless he admits it, we never will.

[Wray]

You're pretty naive if you actually believe that Wray.

So be it. You're the self-admitted horrible lawyer. ;)

[BradS]

You know what I don’t understand. Why the players who use steroids and set records act like they have really done something special. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, and Roger Maris did what these guys have to take drugs to do. Sad and pathetic.

What is athletics coming to? You get paid millions of dollars to play sports, but you bitch because you aren’t paid enough. Take your money, play the game drug free, enjoy your very fortunate life, and shut the fuck up!

The records should not stand.:rolleyes:

[BREW CREW]

Let's try something here: who do YOU think has taken steroids in MLB? Regardless of what they have denied or admitted, who is on your list?

[BradS]

Let's try something here: who do YOU think has taken steroids in MLB? Regardless of what they have denied or admitted, who is on your list?

Me personally? Hell, I don’t know and at this point, I don’t care. Those players are adults; they should be able to say no even if the ‘roids are given out free to everyone.

Once you can have honest athletes who love the game and play it with the sportsmanship and ethics that are needed, then whoever is bringing it into the MBL won’t---there won’t be any reason to because no one will be buying.:brickwall

[billy007]

But how can you say "the records should not stand" when you don't know which records were affected by steroids usage?
First of all, we don't know who took them (regardless of what Canseco says).
Second of all, even if we did, how do you measure how much their performance was affected? If a guy used steroids once - how long does the effect last? If a guy used 'em for a month, two months, a whole season - what does it add? And can the same formula be applied to everybody? If player X does a season on steroids and so does player Y, will the results be the same? Of course not! Cheating sucks and it's wrong, but I don't know how you can go back and try to rewrite the record books after the fact. Do you also go back and wipe out any records set by Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford and other pitchers who are known to have doctored baseballs? How about whole clubs who muddied their infields whenever a team with a fast baserunner was coming to town? People have been caught with corked bats, and other than the hit they may have gotten at the time they were caught with the corked bat, I don't believe they lost any of their prior hits.
Hey, it'd be great if before every game, every player could be tested, every bat x-rayed, check every glove and other piece of equipment for emery boards and sand paper and sharp edges or anything else that may be used for cheating, maybe do a strip-search on the players before they take the field, qualify each of the baseballs, etc. It'd be even greater if no one ever cheated, but they have before and they will again. You can't change the past, all you can do is do your best effort going forward. I feel the sport is trying to do that.

[BradS]

But how can you say "the records should not stand" when you don't know which records were affected by steroids usage?
First of all, we don't know who took them (regardless of what Canseco says).
Second of all, even if we did, how do you measure how much their performance was affected? If a guy used steroids once - how long does the effect last? If a guy used 'em for a month, two months, a whole season - what does it add? And can the same formula be applied to everybody? If player X does a season on steroids and so does player Y, will the results be the same? Of course not! Cheating sucks and it's wrong, but I don't know how you can go back and try to rewrite the record books after the fact. Do you also go back and wipe out any records set by Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford and other pitchers who are known to have doctored baseballs? How about whole clubs who muddied their infields whenever a team with a fast baserunner was coming to town? People have been caught with corked bats, and other than the hit they may have gotten at the time they were caught with the corked bat, I don't believe they lost any of their prior hits.
Hey, it'd be great if before every game, every player could be tested, every bat x-rayed, check every glove and other piece of equipment for emery boards and sand paper and sharp edges or anything else that may be used for cheating, maybe do a strip-search on the players before they take the field, qualify each of the baseballs, etc. It'd be even greater if no one ever cheated, but they have before and they will again. You can't change the past, all you can do is do your best effort going forward. I feel the sport is trying to do that.

That’s my point. In the past, we have been lax with athletes who are unethical. It is passed time for some tough love.

Make a firm stand…start the cleansing now.

Will it suck? Yeah, but you have to do something…this has gone on long enough.

Sportsmaship...this term has been lost on our present day athletes. We are teaching future generations to have no respect for a fair game.

[vheddyrmv8]

Who takes them? All of the good players. People who are good that I think don't are probably Johan Santana, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, A-Rod, and Derek Jeter. They just don't look like they have the physical traits that people like Sheffield, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire have. I don't believe anyone besides them take steroids.

[SuckaInA3Piece]

SAN FRANCISCO - A former girlfriend of Barry Bonds has testified before a federal grand jury that the slugger told her he used steroids, the woman's attorney said Sunday.

Kimberly Bell, 35, of San Jose, testified with full immunity for about two hours Thursday before a federal grand jury, attorney Hugh Levine told The Associated Press.

Bonds has consistently denied ever knowingly using steroids.

Levine said Bell will likely testify again in the near future.

Bonds attorney, Michael Rains, told the San Francisco Chronicle in a story published Sunday that the slugger has no reason to be concerned about her testimony. He accused Bell of attempting to extort money from Bonds, and said she is using the platform to promote a book about her life.

In February 2004, after a federal investigation into a Bay Area company accused of providing steroids to professional athletes, a grand jury indicted Bonds' former weight trainer Greg Anderson, Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative founder Victor Conte and two other men on charges of distributing undetectable steroids. The case is still pending.

Rains said the subpoena of Bell was an indication that Bonds is the real target in the BALCO investigation.

"It's always been the U.S. versus Bonds, and they're always just gunning for the big guy," Rains told the Chronicle. "I guess this is just an extension of that."

Bell, who says she dated Bonds from 1994-2003, testified that the left fielder told her in 2000 that he had begun using steroids, Levine confirmed.

Bell has made similar allegations previously in interviews with the Chronicle and on Fox News' Geraldo Rivera show. However, Bell acknowledged she never saw Bonds use or possess drugs.

The grand jury testimony is sealed, and Levine said he wasn't there when she testified. However, he told the AP, "It is my understanding she told the grand jury" the same information she revealed on Fox News.

The Chronicle has reported that court documents show authorities found evidence that Bonds obtained steroids and other drugs from BALCO. Conte also told investigators that Bonds received steroids known as "the clear" and "the cream."

Bonds swore under oath to the grand jury in 2003 that he never knowingly used steroids. He claimed his trainer had given him what he thought was flaxseed oil and arthritis balm.

"It seems pretty clear to me she was subpoenaed after she went on the Geraldo show and expressly said that Barry Bonds had used steroids," Levine told the AP. "The lead [IRS] investigator in the BALCO investigation ... became aware of that and made the U.S. attorney aware of it, and they decided to put her in the grand jury."

Levine said it appears the grand jury is investigating whether Bonds lied under oath.

In an interview before she was subpoenaed, Bell told the Chronicle that they began dating in 1994, while Bonds was divorcing his first wife, Sun, and they continued after Bonds returned from his honeymoon with his present wife, Liz Watson, in 1998.

The Chronicle also reported, citing two unidentified sources "familiar with an account of her testimony," that Bell also testified that Bonds gave her $80,000 in cash in 2001 in separate $9,000 payments to help her purchase a house in Scottsdale, Ariz.

Federal law regulates cash transactions of more than $10,000.

Rains denied that Bonds ever made large cash payments to Bell.

But Levine said records show otherwise. "I certainly know that there is some evidence in the nature of records showing that money came from Barry Bonds and went toward the purchase of this house, and that's about as far as I can go at this point," he said.

After they parted ways in 2003, Bell threatened to sue Bonds for failing to pay off the Arizona house, then decided to write the book instead.

The government has subpoenaed Bell's bank records and about 90 minutes of voice mail messages from Bonds that she recorded, Levine said.

Messages left by the AP Sunday with Rains and an IRS spokeswoman were not immediately returned.

[rrussou812]

I got this from a sportscollectors site I go to, regarding Jose Canseco's book signing he did tonight in my town of Denton Texas....

i went , got there an hour early and i was the only person in line until about 20 minutes before he was scheduled to be there. By the time he showed up at 6pm there was maybe 15-20 people tops. I got his book signed, got back in line after the 15-20 people got their book and got my 2 MLB balls signed. Others got their memorabilia signed too. Very weak turn out. Which is fine with me cause the guy is a cheater and loser. After he signed my baseballs i returned my book and got my $15 back.

[vheddyrmv8]

I got this from a sportscollectors site I go to, regarding Jose Canseco's book signing he did tonight in my town of Denton Texas....

i went , got there an hour early and i was the only person in line until about 20 minutes before he was scheduled to be there. By the time he showed up at 6pm there was maybe 15-20 people tops. I got his book signed, got back in line after the 15-20 people got their book and got my 2 MLB balls signed. Others got their memorabilia signed too. Very weak turn out. Which is fine with me cause the guy is a cheater and loser. After he signed my baseballs i returned my book and got my $15 back.

That ball will be worth about 5 dollars. Canseco is like the ugly geek who rats on everyone while the teacher is out of the room.

[SuckaInA3Piece]

Fehr: Exposure is key deterrent
Associated Press

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- Baseball union head Donald Fehr predicted public exposure of steroid users will be the most important deterrent, and anticipates players soon will ratify a new agreement on performance-enhancing drugs.

Fehr made his first public comments since last Thursday's testimony before a congressional committee investigating steroid use in baseball.

"The biggest deterrent is exposure. Once that happens, that costs all kinds of things in the job," Fehr said after meeting with Baltimore Orioles players Tuesday. "There's the reputation issue, there's the question everybody's going to look as to whether or not any statistics that individual put up are legitimate or not -- and that can affect future contract negotiations."

After criticism by lawmakers, lawyers for players and owners agreed to drop language giving the commissioner the power to fine players instead of suspending them. Fehr said players' approval of the new wording was "a done deal. ... I don't think there'll be any problem with ratification of the new agreement."

Fehr doesn't think government intervention will be necessary, and said existing testing policies already have proven effective.

Baseball officials told Congress there were 84-96 positive tests in 2003, when there were no penalties, and 12 last year, when the penalty for a first positive test was counseling. Starting this year, a first positive test will result in a 10-day suspension without pay.

"To the extent we have numbers, the numbers indicate there has been very, very dramatic progress," he said.

[BREW CREW]

.
Fehr doesn't think government intervention will be necessary, and said existing testing policies already have proven effective. That is good for baseball.


Starting this year, a first positive test will result in a 10-day suspension without pay.

This is a good start....now, who is gonna be first? AND, whose game play will be most effected.

Fehr: Exposure is key deterrent Fines are not enough IMO, baseball fans and the media will take care of the bashing of a positive testee.

[chefcraig]

For those interested, "60 Minutes" will do a feature on the Carolina Panthers and steroid use 2 weeks before the Super Bowl... :rolleyes:

Whadeva!
...craig :brickwall

[chefcraig]

Senator John McCaine(sp) will be featured on Steven A. Smiths' show discussing the government's anger with MLB over the foot-dragging to come up with a plan to deal with the steroid issue.

He basically is stating that the government has waited long enough, will go into session before Thanksgiving and come up with a binding law regarding the issue.(After the bill is passed, it is roughly a year before it goes into effect as a law.)

How do you folk feel about the government legislating rules of behavior for professional sports leagues?

I honestly do not know how I feel about this.

...craig

[billy007]

Well, at least if they're trying to legislate sports, they're not voting millions for pork... :rolleyes:

[ZeoBandit]

I have mixed feelings about this. Part of me is glad the government is getting involved and is setting tough standards, but on the other hand, they have much bigger issues that they should be dealing with.

[Wray]

I have mixed feelings about this. Part of me is glad the government is getting involved and is setting tough standards, but on the other hand, they have much bigger issues that they should be dealing with.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time, Zeo. It's not the steroids issue that's causing congress to neglect any other issues you might be worried about.

[ZeoBandit]

I am not worried about other issues that may be ignored, but I do debate whether it is the government's place to try to regulate steroids in professional sports. I think I am leaning more towards them passing laws requiring tougher penalties then not getting involved.

[Wray]

I am not worried about other issues that may be ignored, but I do debate whether it is the government's place to try to regulate steroids in professional sports. I think I am leaning more towards them passing laws requiring tougher penalties then not getting involved.

MLB is involved in interstate commerce, which puts them well within federal jurisdiction. They fall into the same category as a business such as Enron would when it comes to oversight.

Simply put, if they can't make things runs properly on their own, then congress can and should step in.

[chefcraig]

MLB is involved in interstate commerce, which puts them well within federal jurisdiction. They fall into the same category as a business such as Enron would when it comes to oversight.

Simply put, if they can't make things runs properly on their own, then congress can and should step in.

An astute point...is there a distinction to be made however, from a "business" that so obviously trades in public?

We are not talking of sweatshops forcing laborers to create clothing, or the exploitation of minimum wage earners. Outside of questionable unions, these people virtually have no voice.

Where is the government then?

I do not believe in restraint of trade, yet I am concerned about worker's rights.

I believe the government's role in this is somewhat dubious and at the same time self-serving.

[Wray]

I believe the government's role in this is somewhat dubious and at the same time self-serving.

You're probably right, to a certain degree. To what degree, though... we won't ever know for sure.

One thing is for sure, though, and that is money. Baseball brings in a boatload of money, and we all beneift from it somewhere down the line. If MLB keeps going the way it is, it's ratings will eventually hit rock bottom, and we'll all suffer in some way, whether it be economically or emotionally.

[chefcraig]

One thing is for sure, though, and that is money. Baseball brings in a boatload of money, and we all beneift from it somewhere down the line. If MLB keeps going the way it is, it's ratings will eventually hit rock bottom, and we'll all suffer in some way, whether it be economically or emotionally.

Agreed, and well said.

I honestly wonder how long the "myth" or truism, held by older baseball fans (such as myself) will last.

For me it was tarnished with the strike, dirtied by Pete Rose, crumpled when the Marlins won the World Series, only to watch an owner sell off the team at a garage sale.

Maguire and Sosa brought it back, Pete Rose kicked it back down, again.

And this last World Series had the worst ratings that anyone can remember (South Florida helped, we did not have electricity :brickwall ).

As said, baseball is a business...it always has been.

Maybe it's the idealism about baseball that will suffer the most...maybe it should, yet it hurts to ponder that.

Things change, adapt or dissappear...that sucks to me.

Baseball reminds me of decency...yeah, being on the up and up.

And each day one reads about that being cheapened, and how obviously the fans seem to care more about the sport than the players.

I'm not saying run ESPN Classic instead of current sports.

I simply wish more young "sportsmen" in America today would watch it.

...craig

[ZeoBandit]

And this last World Series had the worst ratings that anyone can remember (South Florida helped, we did not have electricity :brickwall ).



I think one of the major reasons this years WS was the lowest rated is because simply, very few people cared about either team. Sure, the city of Houston cares about the Astros, and part of Chicago cares for the Sox, but neither team has constant national exposure, and thus they don't have a large fan base outside of their home city.

[ZeoBandit]

Palmeiro: B12 shot may have caused positive test

WASHINGTON -- Rafael Palmeiro gave his first public explanation of his failed drug test Wednesday, on the eve of a congressional report on whether the former Baltimore Orioles slugger lied under oath when he denied using steroids.

In a statement released by his lawyer, Palmeiro acknowledged several facts of his case that already had been reported, including that the anabolic steroid stanozolol was found in his system in May, and that he had raised the possibility that a shot of vitamin B12 he took in April "might have been the cause."

"I have never intentionally taken steroids," Palmeiro said in the statement.

When he testified before the House Government Reform Committee on March 17, alongside Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco and others, Palmeiro jabbed a finger in the air and said: "I have never used steroids. Period." On Aug. 1, baseball suspended Palmeiro for 10 days after he tested positive for steroids.

Two days later, Government Reform Committee chairman Tom Davis, R-Va., said the panel would open an investigation into whether Palmeiro committed perjury. A report on that investigation will be released Thursday, and Davis spokesman Dave Marin wouldn't comment Wednesday on the report's contents or Palmeiro's statement.

Major League Baseball executive vice president Rob Manfred declined comment.

"Nobody is more frustrated and disappointed in me than I am. Throughout my adult life, I have worked very hard on and off the field to live my life in an honorable way. All my accomplishments are now tainted, and many people have been hurt," Palmeiro said.

"I deeply regret the pain I have caused my family, my teammates, my fans and the game of baseball. I am sorry for the distraction that I have caused to the Orioles clubhouse and the League. I remain opposed to the use of steroids by athletes."

Palmeiro's case has been cited as one of the reasons that lawmakers have continued to pursue legislation to mandate tougher rules for steroid testing and harsher penalties for positive tests in baseball and other major professional sports leagues. The Senate appears to be nearing a vote on a bill calling for a half-season ban for a first steroid offense, a full-season ban for a second offense, and a lifetime ban for a third.

"Since I was informed last May that I tested positive for steroids, I have fully cooperated with Major League Baseball and Congress in their respective inquiries into this matter," Palmeiro said. "I have done so because I have nothing to hide."

Palmeiro, one of four players in baseball history with 3,000 hits and 500 homers, agreed to let Major League Baseball turn over to Congress information about the failed drug test.

Committee investigators also interviewed some of Palmeiro's current and former teammates and training partners. Those included two-time American League MVP Juan Gonzalez and Colorado outfielder Jorge Piedra, the second player publicly identified under the sport's new steroid rules when he was banned for 10 days in April.

When Palmeiro rejoined the Orioles after his ban, he said he would not speak about the case until Congress concluded its perjury investigation.

Palmeiro, 40, had just two hits in 26 at-bats after returning from his suspension and was booed by spectators at Baltimore and on the road. He was sent home to Texas to rehabilitate injuries; the Orioles eventually told him not to return to the team.

[ZeoBandit]

Union, owners close to steroids pact
Posted: Monday November 14, 2005 8:10PM; Updated: Tuesday November 15, 2005 1:29AM


NEW YORK (AP) -- After repeated prodding by Congress, baseball players and owners are nearing an agreement that would toughen the penalties for using steroids.

Negotiators would not discuss the talks, which began last spring. Several player agents said in recent days that the sides were making progress toward a deal, though they did not have direct knowledge of the bargaining.

"Last I heard, the sides were really close," Kansas City Royals first baseman Mike Sweeney said Monday.

Representatives of management and the union will head to Capitol Hill on Tuesday for a meeting with House Government Reform Committee Chairman Tom Davis, R-Va., to discuss their progress toward a stiffer testing agreement, Davis spokesman Dave Marin wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Davis' committee held the March 17 hearing at which Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco and other players and baseball officials testified -- and where lawmakers soundly criticized the sport's steroid penalties as too lax.

Baseball owners are to meet Thursday in Milwaukee. Last January, when the union and management revised their 2002 agreement, the changes were announced following an owners meeting in Scottsdale, Ariz.

Baseball executive vice president Rob Manfred and union general counsel Michael Weiner both declined to comment on the talks. Commissioner Bud Selig said last week that he was "hopeful that baseball can solve this problem itself."

The penalty for a first positive test was said by several people to be the largest obstacle to an agreement.

Selig proposed in April that the penalties be 50 games for a first positive, 100 games for a second and a lifetime ban for a third, up from 10 days, 30 days and 60 days under the deal that began this year.

In September, union head Donald Fehr countered with 20 games, 75 games and a penalty set by the commissioner.

And last week, Sens. Jim Bunning, R-Ky., and John McCain, R-Ariz., revised their proposed legislation to soften the penalties, which now call for a half-season ban for a first positive, one season for a second and a lifetime penalty for a third. Their bill would apply to Major League Baseball, the NFL, NBA, NHL and baseball's minor leagues.

At a Sept. 28 hearing of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee, McCain scolded Fehr in particular for not having reached a deal on a new steroids policy.

"We're at the end here, and I don't want to do it, but we need an agreement soon. It's not complicated. It's not complicated. All sports fans understand it," McCain said at the hearing. "I suggest you act -- and act soon."

In addition to the Bunning-McCain bill in the Senate, three pieces of legislation have been proposed in the House, including one by Davis.

[ZeoBandit]

MLB, union agree to new plan
Source: 50-game ban for first offense; greenies added
Posted: Tuesday November 15, 2005 1:02PM; Updated: Tuesday November 15, 2005 1:45PM

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Major League Baseball players and owners agreed to toughen penalties for steroid use to a 50-game suspension for a first failed test and a lifetime ban for a third, The Associated Press learned.

The deal, which also adds testing for amphetamines, was described to the AP by two congressional aides on condition of anonymity because it had not been officially announced.

A formal announcement was planned for later Tuesday, a baseball official told the AP.

Baseball's current steroid penalties are a 10-day suspension for a first offense, 30 days for a second offense, and 60 days for a third. The earliest a player could be banned for life is a fifth offense.

The sport's second new steroids agreement in 10 months came after lengthy negotiations prompted by urging from Congress -- including the threat of legislation that would require higher penalties and stricter testing standards.

[Scotty]

Fuckin A! :thumb:

[79th and Sunset]

"I'm not here to talk about the past"

L

[billy007]

from www.espn.com:

Jose Canseco, whose book "Juiced," which focused attention on the use of performance-enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball and led to congressional hearings on the subject, now says he never should have written the book and named names of alleged steroid users.

During the A&E Network's one-hour documentary, "Jose Canseco: The Last Shot," Canseco said he "regrets mentioning players [as steroid users]. I never realized this was going to blow up and hurt so many people."

During the program, the 44-year-old Canseco said he "wanted revenge" on Major League Baseball because he believed he had been forced out of the game. The book was his means of getting even, and he named names "to show I was telling the truth" about steroids in baseball, he said.

Canseco last played in 2001 and retired in 2002 with 462 career home runs, a .266 batting average, 1,407 RBIs and 200 stolen bases for eight major league clubs.

Among the players Canseco named in "Juiced" as alleged steroid users were Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro and Sammy Sosa. All three addressed the March 2005 congressional hearing on steroids, with McGwire's testimony damaging his chances of being voted into Cooperstown, and Palmeiro's unequivocal denial of steroid use haunting him when he later tested positive and was suspended.

"If I could meet with Mark McGwire and these players, I definitely would apologize to them," Canseco said, according to the New York Daily News. "They were my friends. I admired them. I respected them."

During the A&E program, according to the newspaper, Canseco also said he is scared for his health and living "check to check." He's been a hard-core user of performance-enhancing drugs for more than two decades and, he claims, only recently kicked his addiction.

At one point in the television program, Canseco is shown at an appointment with a Santa Monica physician asking to be weaned off steroids for good to restore his testosterone levels.

"My body forgot how to make testosterone," Canseco said, according to the Daily News. " ... Steroids and the use of steroids destroyed my life completely. Maybe [steroid use] will change some things chemically in me. I don't know what's going to happen."

Earlier this month, Canseco was detained at San Diego's San Ysidro border crossing after agents searched his vehicle and said they found human chorionic gonadotropin, which is illegal without a prescription. The drug is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency for use in males. The drug helps restore production of testosterone lost in steroid users.

He was charged last week in San Diego federal court with a misdemeanor offense of trying to bring a fertility drug across the border from Mexico. He is charged with introduction into interstate commerce of a misbranded drug, which carries a maximum sentence of one year in prison and a $1,000 fine. He has a Nov. 4 court date.

His arrest was not shown as part of the A&E program.

The Philadelphia Daily News reported Tuesday that Canseco, still seeking steady work, has agreed to fight Danny Bonaduce in January as part of a Celebrity Boxing Federation bout. In July, Canseco was knocked out by former Philadelphia Eagles return man Vai Sikahema in Atlantic City, N.J.

"The bigger they are, the harder they fall," Bonaduce said, according to the Philadelphia paper.

Canseco. Bonaduce. gonadotropin (and it's chronic! Someone alert Snoop Dogg!).

What's not to love about this story?

"His arrest was not shown as part of the A&E program."

well, maybe there's always "Cops"...

[edwardv]

Should have saved some of those millions bro. Hey Jose Madonnas single again maybe you can compete with ARod.

[billy007]

from www.espn.com:

A new book proposal, submitted by the admittedly estranged brother of Mark McGwire, claims the former major league slugger used both steroids and human growth hormone during his career.

In the proposal, first reported Wednesday on Deadspin.com, Jay McGwire alleges that Mark used Deca-Durabolin and that he introduced Mark to performance-enhancing drugs in 1994.

According to the report, Jay McGwire writes in his proposal that his brother "began to use, but in low dosages so he wouldn't lift his way out of baseball. Deca-Durabolin helped with his joint problems and recovery, while growth hormone helped his strength, making him leaner in the process. I became the first person to inject him, like most first-timers he couldn't plunge in the needle himself. Later a girlfriend injected him."

Jose Canseco, in a book he wrote in 2005, claims he and McGwire, former Oakland A's teammates, used performance-enhancing drugs as far back as 1988. Jay McGwire disputes that in the book proposal.

The McGwire brothers reportedly haven't spoken to each other for years.

The book, "The McGwire Family Secret: The Truth about Steroids, a Slugger and Ultimate Redemption," is reportedly being sent by Jay McGwire to several publishing houses in New York. Deadspin.com said that it has been turned down by "many" publishers.

Jay McGwire is a bodybuilder. He writes in the proposal that he took his brother to his supplier and trainer after a 1994 bodybuilding championship, which Jay won. He says McGwire started using performance-enhancing substances then.

Jay McGwire claims in the proposal that Mark McGwire used androstenedione in 1998 to allow Mark "to avoid all the potential adverse side effects that could occur from using anabolic steroids, such as water retention, hair loss, and liver, heart, or kidney stress. In addition, he wouldn't have cholesterol problems or testicular atrophy. And there were no problems with the law."

McGwire hit 70 home runs in the 1998 season, breaking Roger Maris' single-season record. It has since been eclipsed by Barry Bonds.

Jay McGwire, in the reported proposal, also says he wished his brother would have confessed at the famous congressional hearing, instead of saying he wasn't going to talk about the past. Jay McGwire also writes that he doesn't believe missing out on the Hall of Fame will affect his brother.

"Mark is a man I think most would like to forgive because his reason wasn't nefarious -- it was for survival," he wrote, according to the proposal. "My bringing the truth to surface about Mark is out of love. I want Mark to live in truth to see the light, to come to repentance so he can live in freedom -- which is the only way to live. "

The Deadspin.com report does not say if Mark McGwire has commented on the proposal. McGwire has been out of the public eye since retiring from the St. Louis Cardinals in 2001. He is now 45 years old.

[broken9500]

Can't believe I never noticed this thread before.

Here's my outlook on asterices in record books...the whole damn book would be astericked for one thing or another so leave them out.

Think about it: So we put on Bonds. Ok. He gets one because he was on the juice and without it he probably wouldn't not have hit as many homers.

So then let's put one by the Babe's record because not only did he not juice, the bastard probably never did a sit up in his life. He showed up to the ballgame drunk. Smoked like a chimney. Ate slop. So, had he benefitted from even a bit of modern health and wellness AND not spent the first several seasons of his career as a pitcher, he'd have hit 1000 homers.

Steroids may help muscle mass, they may help with recovery time etc but I'm not convinced it makes you a better baseball player. You still have to master the skills and hitting a randy johnson slider doesn't get any easier juicing, in fact I've read that it can be a hinderance because more muscle mass makes it harder to turn on a pitch.

To be honest, I wouldn't be blown away if they just said "to hell with it" and legalized the damn things. What difference does it really make? I don't think not having them keeps the sport "pure" and I don't think it creates an unlevel playing field. A playing field, by design is uneven. Some people run faster. Some people are taller. Some people are just plain better. In order to really have a level playing field we'd have to have teams comprised of genetic clones and regulate every calorie, ever second of practice. If one guy does one more rep, takes one more swing at BP, it's no longer level. That guy now has an advantage.

You can make a case that it puts pressure on others to juice but really I don't think that has played out. For ever Jeff Bagwell and Barry Bonds, there's a Craig Biggio or Greg Maddox.

The other case that can be made, and quite easily, is that steroids are horrible for your health. I couldn't agree more. To do so would be to simply ignore the reality. You take incredible gambles with your health when you take them BUT, it's a free world. If someone wants to trade a few seasons at the beginning of their career for 20 years at the end of their career, whatever. By the time McGuire walked off the field, the guy moved like an 80 year old man. I've read that steroids make your body more brittle over time and as such more prone to injury. That's to say nothing of the impotence and sterility.

Then of course there's the chiiildren...can't forget about the chiiiiildren. It sets a bad example. If the chiiiildren see their favourite baseball player juicing and hitting a bunch of homeruns then they'll want to juice. Well, isn't that the way of life? If this is the only reason not to allow them well, we need to make sure that all baseball players abstain from tobacco, booze, unmarried sex etc etc.

I suppose the other big reason is that it makes comparing statistics impossible but that is already impossible. The different eras in baseball are so unique on so many levels that the only way to really judge a player is against players of their own era. I honestly think if we grabbed Ruth, Mantle, Gherig, Koufax, Dimaggio, Williams and their buddies and brought them here via time machine they'd destroy today's players. Combine their absolutely incredible sense of win or die competitiveness and their gift for the game with today's sports training, injury management, dieting and non-steroid supplements and they would destroy the records they set in their day.

I'm not really in support of allowing steroids in the game, I just don't think it would change anything one way or the other.

[ZachenFoot]

Personally, I like Mark McGwire, and I think I have legitimate reasons for doing so.

Let's face it, we've all known for a very long time he had been juiced. But in becoming a baseball fan fourteen years ago, my interest flourished in 1998 with the race between Mac and Sammy Sosa, as did millions of other old and new baseball fans. I'll never forget the thrill I had seeing him slap #62 that year JUST over the left field wall, lying in bed around 8PM on September 8, 1998. Chip Caray's call STILL rings in my ear today, and I still have that game on tape, somewhere. So he left a considerable impact as far as me becoming a fan, as did Sammy Sosa, which is why I positively reflect on his days as a Cub despite how poorly the ended.

Not to mention, Big Mac always showed class, even by the time he retired. Bonds and Clemens have shown absolutely no class and they obviously used performance enhancing drugs. By no means do I condone steroid use, but I tend to go easy on players like McGwire and Jason Giambi who have used but never let that deteriorate their relationships with the common fan.

Just my two cents, and clearly there's a personal bias so don't take it too seriously. Mark McGwire probably doesn't fit my Top 50 list of players from my generation, but I still do respect him and what he did for baseball when the sport needed it the most. It's hard to find many players to truly like from my generation because of the steroid era (outside of your Ripkens, Gwynns, Griffeys, Jeters, etc.).

[chefcraig]

The Pardon The Interruption guys were talking about this appearance this afternoon. One of the interesting comments made was that no one they knew had even heard about this book until Clemens went on Mike and Mike to slam it. http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-ashamed-smileys-705.gif (http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/)

You can listen to the nonsense here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4160521).

Clemens critical of new book
ESPN.com news services

Roger Clemens ended his long media silence Tuesday on ESPN Radio's "Mike and Mike in the Morning," sticking to his story that he has never used performance-enhancing drugs and calling excerpts of a recently released book about him "completely false."

Clemens, in a phone interview with hosts Mike Greenberg and Mike Golic, appeared on the same day that "American Icon: The Fall of Roger Clemens and the Rise of Steroids in America's Pastime," a book by four New York Daily News reporters, was released.

"I've seen excerpts of the book. They're completely false," Clemens said.

The seven-time Cy Young Award winner also continued to deny that he was given steroids and human growth hormone by his former personal trainer Brian McNamee, saying it was "impossible" that drug paraphernalia supplied to federal prosecutors by McNamee has his DNA on it.

Clemens also said he still considers former teammate Andy Pettitte a friend, though he also held firm to his assertion that Pettitte "misremembers" a conversation in which Pettitte said they discussed performance-enhancing drugs.

"It's piling on, it's hurtful at times," Clemens said of the allegations that have been made against him. "I'm trying to move on."

Clemens, who is under a federal grand jury investigation for perjury following his testimony before Congress, said he decided to end his silence and react to the book because he plans to leave his Texas home for a week's vacation.

"I was informed this book was coming out and thought we ought to talk about it," Clemens told "Mike and Mike in the Morning." "It's important for me to do that."

Clemens has retained a communications firm, Levick Strategic Communications. The firm's vice president, Gene Grabowski, also spoke with "Mike and Mike in the Morning" on Tuesday in a separate interview.

"They came in and said, 'You need to get your story out about all this garbage that is being said,'" Clemens said.

Asked about "American Icon," by Daily News reporters Teri Thompson, Nathaniel Vinton, Michael O'Keeffe and Christian Red, Clemens said, "I've seen excerpts of the book, they're completely false." He did not specify which part of the book he had seen.

Vinton, also appearing on "Mike and Mike in the Morning," responded to Clemens' criticism.

"Our book is really backed up by a lot of documentation and interviews with key players," Vinton said, "It's not false, we really researched this carefully ... and take it very seriously."

When asked about the physical evidence reportedly handed over by McNamee to federal investigators and whether it had his DNA on it, Clemens said, "Impossible, because he's never given me any [performance-enhancing drugs], it's as simple as that. He's never given me HGH or any kind of performance-enhancing drug, so it's impossible."

Later in the interview, he said McNamee "never injected me with HGH or steroids." Pointing out that his family has a history of heart conditions, Clemens said "It would be suicidal for me to even think about taking any of these dangerous drugs."

Asked about Pettitte's testimony that Clemens had told him he used HGH, Clemens repeated a line that he uttered during his congressional testimony: "Andy misremembers." He said he'd only talked to Pettitte a few times since then because of the legal issues.

"I still consider Andy a friend," Clemens said.

Following the interview, McNamee's lawyer, Richard Emery, told Andrew Marchand of ESPN 1050 New York that Clemens' comments would only energize federal prosecutors in their perjury investigation. He also said McNamee has continued to cooperate with the investigation.

"The only thing new is [Clemens'] tactic of actually speaking publicly, which I think is going to be like poking a stick in the federal government's eye and Congress' eye because he is basically saying he didn't lie to Congress when it is perfectly obvious that he did," Emery said. "I think it is going to speed up and energize the prosecution."

As for his role in the probe, Clemens said he has submitted a DNA sample -- "I did it right out of the gate, willingly," he said -- and that he has not been summoned by a federal grand jury.

"Everywhere I've gone and gotten the opportunity to speak to young kids or college kids, I take a lot of pride in telling those boys to get after it and do things the right way and take care of your body, because I know how I did it," he said. "For some of that to come in question, of course it's hurtful. But it's not going to break my spirit."

When asked about opinion polls showing the public does not believe his denials, Clemens said "All I can do is speak the truth and from my heart to them."

"I know what your polls say, [but] I've been getting great responses everywhere I've gone in the cities I've traveled to. All I can do is be me and give them the message I just told you about that steroids are bad for these kids. You don't want to have anything to do with them the way they tear your body down," he said.

"But I can't defend a negative. When you've got somebody that's out there that is really just crawling up your back to make a buck -- which is what this is -- other than speaking out, what else can you do?"

Clemens' former manager in New York, Joe Torre, appearing on ESPN Radio's "Tirico and Van Pelt" show, said that Clemens' self-confidence was one of his strongest competitive aspects as a player, but may have hampered him when it came time to address the allegations in the Mitchell report in front of Congress.

"I think when he speaks -- and maybe that's why he played so well for so long -- is that fact that he basically believes what he says," Torre told hosts Mike Tirico and Scott Van Pelt.

"There's a side of Roger that makes you want to hug him," Torre added. "He's been that guy that everyone's paid attention to and nobody's ever questioned, so it may be a point in time where that has to sort of run out the hourglass."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4160521

[Raldo]

In this book about Clemens, were there any names of people who spoke about Clemens or "un-named sources"?

Just curious to see if any player or ex-player would stand toe-to-toe with Clemens.

[chefcraig]

Sosa Said to Test Positive in 2003

By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT

Sammy Sosa, who joined with Mark McGwire in 1998 in a celebrated pursuit of baseball’s single-season home run record, is among the players who tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug in 2003, according to lawyers with knowledge of the drug-testing results from that year.

The disclosure that Sosa tested positive makes him the latest baseball star of the last two decades to be linked to performance-enhancers, a group that now includes McGwire, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez and Rafael Palmeiro.

Sosa, who is sixth on Major League Baseball’s career home run list and last played in 2007, had long been suspected of using performance-enhancing drugs but until now had never been publicly linked to a positive test.

In a recent interview with ESPN Deportes, Sosa, 40, said he would “calmly wait” for his induction into baseball’s Hall of Fame, for which he will become eligible for induction in 2013. But his 2003 positive test, when he played for the Chicago Cubs, may seriously damage his chances of gaining entry to the Hall, a fate encountered by McGwire, who has attracted relatively little support from voters in his first three years on the ballot.

The 2003 positive test could also create legal troubles for Sosa because he testified under oath before Congress at a public hearing in 2005 that he had “never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs.”

The 2003 test that ensnared Sosa was the first such test conducted by Major League Baseball. Under guidelines agreed upon with the players union, the test results were to remain anonymous but would lead to testing with penalties the next year if more than 5 percent of the results were positive.

That is indeed what occurred. But for reasons never made completely clear, the test results were not destroyed by the players union and the 104 positives were subsequently seized by federal agents on the West Coast investigating matters related to the distribution of drugs to athletes.

The union immediately filed court papers alleging that the agents had illegally seized the tests, and over the past six years judges at various levels of the federal court system have been weighing whether the government can keep them. An 11-judge panel in California is preparing to rule in the case, but regardless of its verdict, the losing side is expected to appeal to the United States Supreme Court.

As the union feared, the names on the list have begun to emerge. In February, Sports Illustrated reported that Rodriguez was on the 2003 list, and Rodriguez subsequently acknowledged that he had used steroids for three years. Now, Sosa’s name has been disclosed.

The lawyers who had knowledge of Sosa’s inclusion on the 2003 list did not know the substance for which Sosa tested positive. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they did not want to be identified as discussing material that is sealed by a court order.

A lawyer for Sosa, Jay Reisinger, declined comment, as did an official with Major League Baseball.

Sosa, who lives in the Dominican Republic, became a national figure with the Cubs in 1998, when he and McGwire, of the St. Louis Cardinals, engaged in a compelling race to overtake Roger Maris’s single-season home run record of 61. McGwire passed Maris first and ended up with 70 home runs. Sosa followed close behind with 66.

The home run race was credited with helping revive interest in baseball after a 232-game strike wiped out the 1994 post-season and the beginning of the 1995 season.

In the seasons that followed, Sosa exceeded 60 home runs on two more occasions. But he was fading as a player when he traveled to Washington in March 2005 to testify with Palmeiro and McGwire and others at a hearing called by the House Government Reform Committee to examine the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball.

At the hearing, Sosa testified that “everything” he had heard “about steroids and human growth hormones is that they are bad for you, even lethal” and that he “would never put anything dangerous like that” in his body.

“To be clear,” he added, “I have never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs. I have never injected myself or had anyone inject me with anything.”

During that hearing, McGwire, by then retired, repeatedly declined to answer questions about possible drug use, saying he was not there to talk about the past. His statements were widely viewed as an admission of guilt, and since then he has had little involvement with baseball except for privately serving as a hitting tutor for several major leaguers. To win election to the Hall of Fame, a player must be named on 75 percent of the ballots cast; McGwire has yet to be named on 25 percent of them.

At that same hearing, Palmeiro pointed his finger at committee members as he said: “I have never used steroids. Period.” Five months later, he was suspended for 10 games as a result of a positive steroids test.

The committee declined to ask the Justice Department to investigate him for perjury, in part because it felt it could not establish that Palmeiro was lying at the time he testified.

Unlike Palmeiro, Sosa testified after he had tested positive, not before, but it is not clear if the committee will want to pursue the matter.

The committee did refer Clemens to the Justice Department for investigation of perjury after he repeatedly denied using performance-enhancing drugs in a public hearing in 2008, and Clemens’s statements are now being studied by a federal grand jury.

Bonds, who set a single-season home run record of 73 just three years after McGwire hit 70, holds the career mark for home runs, with 762. He is also the target of legal proceedings: he is awaiting trial on charges that he lied to a federal grand jury in December 2003 when he testified that he never knowingly used performance-enhancers.

Like Sosa, Bonds and Clemens last played in 2007 and, at this point, also seem destined to appear on the 2013 Hall of Fame ballot. That fact, in itself, would seem to guarantee that the issue of drug use in baseball is likely to reverberate for years to come.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/sports/baseball/17doping.html?em