Air traffic control has verified that an F-16 fighter jet was in pursuit of the plane the went down near Pittsburgh. While the on-board heroics may or may not be true, it is now known that the military WAS present before the crash.

Does anyone here have any problem with the idea of the military shooting down a civilian airliner in such a situation? Given the known circumstances, I think it would be the right thing. If they DID shoot it down, then the reports of the cell phone calls may indeed have been fabricated for PR purposes. Regardless, it looks as though our fighter jet DID have SOMETHING to do with the plane's demise, either through a rocket fired or perhaps radio instruction to one of the heroic passengers.

Anyway, back to the question: how would you all feel if we are to find out that it WAS shot down?

I'm ok with it if all circumstances to it's demise are true. It's better that it happened away from civilization and commerce.

I have no problem with something like this happening. I'm against ANY life perishing, but it's better that the few dozen die in mid-air than possibly several hundred getting killed if it would have hit a building. smilies/frown.gif

BTW, this might explain why debris from this crash was found six miles away...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbeVanHalen:

Does anyone here have any problem with the idea of the military shooting down a civilian airliner in such a situation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no problem with it considering that more lives were bound to be at stake....I really want to believe that had I been on a plane, knowing that I was going to die, that I'd have done "whatever" to prevent more people from dying....so be it a passenger trying to save more lives, or the military matters little to me.....is one alternative better than the other? I don't think so...the plane didn't hit a target and kill more people smilies/cry.gif God Bless their souls!!


......except the hijackers smilies/mad.gif Fuck them!!

If it was the first and only plane then there might be a moral dilemma. But it wasn't, so there isn't.

Considering the circumstances, if this is the case (plane being shot down), then i would have to applaud the decision. However, I also am very sad for the loss of innocent lives.

This has been my gut feeling from the beggining I'm afraid. I knew we shot it down. They called for approval to re-direct to D.C., then all the shit went down. So we KNEW there was one on the way to the capitol when the towers went down. We get it in a remote area so civilians dont witness it....too contraversial to shoot down our own. Personally, I think it was the best thing.

Could this explain why debris was found miles away from the crash site? Regardless, I would like confirmation of this information. If true, then thank God the plane was sacrificed so that thousands of other people wouldn't die. Certainly, those people were headed for their deaths anyway. smilies/frown.gif

this whole situation is so utterly devastating.
you literally have to separate the human factor out of a wartime decision in order to survive.

look at it this way: if the military was able to shoot down those two planes that destroyed the WTC, about 10,000 lives would be saved at the expense of about 200. not to mention the monetary damage, the effect on the lives of 3 million NYers, etc.

how horrifying this all is.

life will never be the same.

every time i close my eyes i see the second plane hit the tower. i was stuck on a train in the middle of the manhattan bridge less than a mile away. STUCK THERE, like a sitting duck. i'll never forget it.

these bastards must be completely wiped out - and those who may follow them, too.

Abe, do you have a link to a story where that was reported?

I believe the story of passengers overcoming the hijackers is probably correct. The cell phone calls certainly weren't made up as I know of one from non-media sources. I haven't seen this particular story, but the Christian Science Monitor reported that F15s were scrambled to chase the planes heading for the WTC - obviously they didn't get there in time, it's not even clear if they got off the ground.

The only thing I remember hearing was that some passenger on that doomed plane called his family and then said he saw some smoke coming from the wings. But that was a few days ago, and I haven't heard a word about that since.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett:
Abe, do you have a link to a story where that was reported?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the story was on the radio early this morning; I don't know of anywhere online to find it. I am not sure which air traffic control station (most likely Pittsburgh International or a smaller nearby airport was the source of the info, but it wasn't mentioned)

There WERE a small number of eyewitnesses with VAGUE details based on visual evidence, but the actual news came from an air traffic control station which was not identified. Obviously, the pilot (assuming that there WAS said F-16 on the spot) has not been debriefed, or it was a clasified mission.

There is also the possibility that the F-16 was only tailing the airliner, but watched it go down on its own. However, there is some evidence that agrees with the shoot-down theory:

1) A large airliner WANTS to fly; they are designed to maintain or regain flight due to their shape. It is virtually impossible to nose-dive an airliner from high altitude into the ground; however, a stall-out CAN be caused by flying UPWARD to the point of complete stall. It would take an INTENTIONAL act of crashing to cause that type of crash, and a pilot would had to have been in control. If a hijacker was at the controls, why wouldn't they continue on target? And why, if the REGULAR pilot took control, would he opt for suicide? If he had control again, he would have been more apt to try and at least land it gently.

2) There was an explosion of some sort reported before the plane descended.

3) Some of the material from the plane was found 6-8 miles away. In the most recent crash in PGH, Flight 427, where the plane went down of its own accord, leaving a crater and mostly nothing else of size behind, the debris did NOT scatter nearly that far.


Again, it's still all theory, but there was an EXPLICIT report on the radio that air traffic control specified an F-16 was tailing the airliner, and IMMEDIATELY headed away when the plane went down. It's still possible that the on-board heroics occurred, but it's up to the gov't/military to tell us what they choose.

Sorry there's nowhere that I know of to link to. If I hear any more, I'll certainly post it either way.

I think that there is a good chance that it was shot down, i've suspected that it was.

I hope if it was, the U.S. Air Force will admit to it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbeVanHalen:

1) A large airliner WANTS to fly; they are designed to maintain or regain flight due to their shape. It is virtually impossible to nose-dive an airliner from high altitude into the ground; however, a stall-out CAN be caused by flying UPWARD to the point of complete stall. It would take an INTENTIONAL act of crashing to cause that type of crash, and a pilot would had to have been in control. If a hijacker was at the controls, why wouldn't they continue on target? And why, if the REGULAR pilot took control, would he opt for suicide? If he had control again, he would have been more apt to try and at least land it gently.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are exceptions to everything though. Remember the plane crash in Roselawn Indiana about six years ago on Halloween? That plane was flying just fine, and went into a steep dive and crashed, spreading debris for miles. That plane was flying on course, and suddenly went out of control in a spinning dive. It crashed.

As far as the pilot opting for a safe landing, I agree. But what if he believed that there was a bomb on board and believed that he and all the souls on his plane were going to die no matter what, and to spare lives...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbeVanHalen:

3) Some of the material from the plane was found 6-8 miles away. In the most recent crash in PGH, Flight 427, where the plane went down of its own accord, leaving a crater and mostly nothing else of size behind, the debris did NOT scatter nearly that far.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUT! What if there had been a bomb aboard and it was detonated when the passengers tried to deviate the path of the plane?


Not saying you're wrong Abe, just playing the devil's advocate. I heard speculation that they plane might have been shot down...but the official report was that though the planes scrambled, they never got off the ground in time. You know how it's been though...somebody hears something, someone else repeats it, then another states it's fact, and only later after the frenzy is over, do we hear the truth...

If indeed it were shot down, I'd support it. Even if I had a loved one on that plane, or it was me. To spare the lives of many more, I'd be willing to sacrifice mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LA:


BUT! What if there had been a bomb aboard and it was detonated when the passengers tried to deviate the path of the plane?


I think our airports have, for the most part, been bomb-free for some time. And since all these suicide missions followed the SAME m.o., they would have all used bombs. Also, if it had been a bomb, that crater wouldn't be there like it is.


Not saying you're wrong Abe, just playing the devil's advocate.

No prob...I'm just relaying evidence based on what I heard.



There are exceptions to everything though. Remember the plane crash in Roselawn Indiana about six years ago on Halloween? That plane was flying just fine, and went into a steep dive and crashed, spreading debris for miles. That plane was flying on course, and suddenly went out of control in a spinning dive. It crashed



Well, I was in PA for most of my life, and Flight 427 was a HUGE story for me, since I knew someone who died on board. That was a jet that seemed to fall out of the sky, and although they blamed a faulty rudder, the consensus is that the pilot and a flight attendant were fooling around and someone got stuck under the yolk and stalled the plane. However, that was at VERY low altitude to begin with, with no chance to recover. After all the attention it got in the news, the physics of planes falling were detailed, and now, with all the other events of Tuesday, it's VERY unlikely that it just fell. Barring mechanical interference, the crash was intentional one way or another.


If indeed it were shot down, I'd support it. Even if I had a loved one on that plane, or it was me. To spare the lives of many more, I'd be willing to sacrifice mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again, I don't know or claim to know what happened, but I think we can assume that regardless, we will never know the whole story. I am mostly just curious as to how everyone thinks about a US fighter downing a commercial liner in the situation. I have heard some people find it offensive that I even suggested it, so I figured it might be a touchy subject.

(and playing devil's advocate is a good way to sort through evidence when we lack facts; I know you aren't attacking me in any way smilies/smile.gif)

[ September 14, 2001 at 07:31 PM: Message edited by: AbeVanHalen ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well, I was in PA for most of my life, and Flight 427 was a HUGE story for me, since I knew someone who died on board. That was a jet that seemed to fall out of the sky, and although they blamed a faulty rudder, the consensus is that the pilot and a flight attendant were fooling around and someone got stuck under the yolk and stalled the plane. However, that was at VERY low altitude to begin with, with no chance to recover. After all the attention it got in the news, the physics of planes falling were detailed, and now, with all the other events of Tuesday, it's VERY unlikely that it just fell. Barring mechanical interference, the crash was intentional one way or another.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, see now I seem to recall that it was on autopilot and that it went in to a steep dive due to icing problems, though they speculated about wind shear involvement initially, it finally was attributed to icing...

Roselawn is not far from where I live so that particular catastrophe was close to home. I'm not sure if we're talking about the same one though... but I agree, the mechanics and physics of plane crashes have been well documented.

Regardless, I'd still support the shooting down of a plane in circumstances like these. (just to get it back on topic... smilies/wink.gif )

[ September 15, 2001 at 07:04 AM: Message edited by: LA ]

story (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/cheney.terror/)

In the moments after it became apparent that the United States was under attack Tuesday, President Bush authorized the military to shoot down any unauthorized civilian aircraft that might have been heading toward the White House or the Capitol, Vice President Dick Cheney said Sunday.
Authorities believe it may have been headed toward the White House or the Capitol, and it crashed during an apparent struggle between the passengers and hijackers.

None of the four flights that were hijacked and deliberately crashed -- two others slammed into the World Trade Center in New York -- were hit by military fire.

There were witnesses interviewed in PA. that saw two smaller planes leaving very quickly after hearing a loud bang. Immediately afterwards the plane crashed.
Under the circumstances, I guess the pilots didn't have much choice, other than to try and pick an area that wasn't heavily populated.
By the time that would have happened, the white house would have been well aware of the hijacker's intentions.
They wouldn't have known where exactly it was headed, but it was a huge flying bomb, and once it was zeroed in on, and heading for a target there would be no way to stop it without killing possibly thousands more.
Attack pilots don't have the luxury of making decisions as to right or wrong once they're ordered to go after a target.

I really doubt an F-16 shot down the 4th airliner.

First of all, the government likely would have told us about it. The ATC center (likely the one in Ohio) likely would have leaked it. Hard to keep hundreds of civillians silent, eh?

The passengers likely managed to take control of the airliner, or were in a struggle for it. In either case it's likely no one was flying the airplane properly. Those things can and will crash if that's the case. Particularly if...

Somebody opens a door. That's the most reasonable explanation for debris being a distance from the crash site. When people panic, they look for ways out. They don't necessarily think about that they're doing, just about getting the hell out. If someone opened a door at altitude, the plane would have decompressed, and violently.

Explosive decompression has brought down airliners in the past. It can buckle the airframe, and jam control actuators. There's a fairly famous case of this happening to a Turkish DC-10 many years ago.

The President did give authorization to shoot down the airplanes headed for DC, but this one was (relatively) far away and it all happened much faster than our military is able to respond to something like this.

Decompression is due to someone opening a door is my guess as to the reason for the crash, and the seperated debris.

The decompression theory sounds plausible, MikeL, except wouldn't some of the passengers have been sucked out of the plane and strewn about as well? It's already been reported that the hijackers had everybody move to the back of the plane, so I doube everyone was seated with their seatbelt securely fastened, their seat back all the way forward and their tray table in an upright and locked position - and even if most of 'em were, we know the hijackers probably weren't and the people that struggled with 'em weren't. I think it might be more possible their was a struggle in the cabin for control of the aircraft and nobody won, maybe the black boxes and stuff will tell or maybe we'll never know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billy007:
The decompression theory sounds plausible, MikeL, except wouldn't some of the passengers have been sucked out of the plane and strewn about as well? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I don't think there'd be much left of someone impacting the ground from altitude, unfortunately. I'm sure everything'll come clear eventually. Until then we're all just speculating.

Here's the story, guys.

http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,311011-412,00.shtml

One report I saw was debris supposably was found from the plane about 8 miles away from where it was located on the ground.

If true then it definately was shot down and I applaud them for it.
Who the hell knows for sure where it was headed.

Just heard/watched this on the Chicago news (NBC 5 Chicago). I'll see if I can find a link with verifiable support, but for now, here's what the story said.

[B]On September 11th, an Airphone Supervisor received a phone call from 32 year old Todd Beemer (not sure of spelling). Todd was on the Pennsylvania plane. When things went bad, he called her to notify someonw, anyone about what was going on. The supervisor's name is Lisa Jefferson.

Lisa, stationed in Oak Brook Illinois (ironic because Todd is from Wheaton, just a stones throw away), was shocked by what he had to say. Todd told her that the pilot and co-pilot were dead. That the plane had been hi-jacked by three terrorists. Two were fying the plane and a third one (with what appeared to be a bomb strapped around his waist) had hoarded the passengers in the back of the plane. He told her that he knew that there was no way out of this, that he and some of the other passengers had decided to do what they could to stop the terrorists from being completely successful in their mission. He said the Lord's Prayer. He asked her, given that she was so close to his home, to contact his wife for him and to be sure to let her know that he loved her. When he was ready, she heard him put the phone down, but he didn't disconnect. Lisa Jefferson could hear everything. She said she heard Todd Beemer yell, "OK everybody, are you ready?...Let's Roll!" The phone went dead shortly after that

Lisa Jefferson said that she was on the phone for 15 minutes with Beemer. Through most of the call, she could hear the screams of the other passengers. The call was recorded and the transcripts are on their way to the FBI.

Jefferson was so distraught over what she heard, that she has been given some time off of work.

[ September 17, 2001 at 05:49 PM: Message edited by: LA ]

Here's the link

NBC5 Chicago: A Local Hero's Last Words (http://www.nbc5.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=FutureTense/Apps/Xcelerate/View&c=NBCArticle&cid=NBCUAG75JRC&p=NBCL7JZRB8C&live=true)

I did mispell his last name: His name is Tood Beamer. He and his flight mates deserve every recognition that they can get.