I'm sure most of you read Jermaine O'Neal's comments yesterday regaring the age limit the NBA is proposing. What is everyone's opinion on this topic? Here's mine-I think there should be an age limit on players coming into the NBA for several reasons. First, let's look at the recent high school kids coming into the NBA: LeBron, Kobe, T-Mac, Kevin G., and J. O'Neal. Other than James, none of these players provided an immediate impact towards their team. I can't think of any h.s. players who were drafted high and began to play right away (James being the exception). It took at least 3 years before these players were able to play at the NBA's level. At that time, their rookie contract was up, if I'm not mistaken. Granted, they are amazing players now, but I can still recall Kobe/T-Mac/etc riding the pine as their teams struggled through the season. Instead of riding the pine, they could have been in college improving their game and themselves personally. Look at Tim Duncan-he spent 4 years in college and provided an immeadiate impact on his team. Secondly, whenever a team "drafts" a player, it seems all the G.M.'s are scared they are going to miss the next Kobe/T-Mac/etc. So they are drafting on what could be instead of what is (i.e. Kwame Brown). Finally, when I went to college, I grew up. I found out who I was and what I believed in. It was my first time away from home and I was on my own. It certainly couldn't hurt if Kobe had the same experiences I did.

There's an excellent article on this subject on espn.com right now...

O'Neal is wrong about the racism. The fact of the matter is that HS kids just can't compete their first years in the league. LeBron is a a rarer talent than even Jordan. Even Garnett took several years to become the monster he is. O'Neal's comments are even more lame considering how long it took him to become the player he is...

It's not a race issue. Stern knows what a joke the quality of the game is overall and he needs to address it...

There's an excellent article on this subject on espn.com right now...

O'Neal is wrong about the racism. The fact of the matter is that HS kids just can't compete their first years in the league. LeBron is a a rarer talent than even Jordan. Even Garnett took several years to become the monster he is. O'Neal's comments are even more lame considering how long it took him to become the player he is...

It's not a race issue. Stern knows what a joke the quality of the game is overall and he needs to address it...

I too recall O'Neal rotting on Portland's bench for several years. That's just the thing, he didn't do much of anything in Portland and then he "blossomed" for lack of a better word, when he went to Indy. Could he have been this good in Portland had he gone to college for a few years?

I agree with Sacto. I think the one thing that seperates Lebron's situation when he was coming out of high school from other kids is that he had an NBA body. He wasn't all lean and frail like most kids are coming out of high school.

I agree that there should be an age limit, although I do see Jermane's point about hockey and baseball. He doesn't know that most of those kids get sent down to the minor's and juniors to hone their craft, and basically just bulk up for the contact they're going to take.

There are a ton of things in every league that could be linked to direct racism, but this is not one of em. As an afro-american I believe that every black kid coming out of high school needs to go to college. I'm not saying they have to stay the full four years, but too many ppl have died for us to have the right to get a collegiate education. So for that we owe them by atleast attending college for a mandatory 2yrs.

All these kids coming out early is exactly the reason why the crop of players just aren't as good as they used to be. You just don't have the experience to compete with guys that have been playing in the NBA for years, and also have that college experience under their belt.

I'm not the biggest fan of college athletics and realise that the "education" most of these guys get in college is a joke. If a guy can play, then if a team wants to take a chance on 'em, they should be able to. I might make it mandatory that you have to finish high school or something, but I don't think they should be required to go to college. Of course, it would help if the NBA had a minor league like baseball does, but I believe all the "secondary" basketball leagues (except maybe the WNBA) have dried up, right?

That's a good point also Billy. However there are a good deal of these players that do go to college to play ball and get an education.

Even if the education they get at college isn't worth shit, atleast they're getting a chance to play at another level and hone their craft. So many players today come into the league with no sense of the art of defense, or a perimeter game. Everybody wants to play this "backyard basketball" style of game that you see on ESPN2. I think if more of these guys went to college their overall game would be more refined.

Ignorant statements by Jermaine O'Neal IMO.

And yes there should be an age limit. For every Kobe, KG, and Lebron, there have been guys like Qyntel Woods, even Jermaine O'Neal, etc. that definitely weren't ready for the NBA at 18. And it has nothing to do with the color of their skin, it has to do with maturity.

If teams would do better scouting, and use more restraint, this wouldn't be an issue. Pistons included.

That's a good point also Billy. However there are a good deal of these players that do go to college to play ball and get an education.

Even if the education they get at college isn't worth shit, atleast they're getting a chance to play at another level and hone their craft. So many players today come into the league with no sense of the art of defense, or a perimeter game. Everybody wants to play this "backyard basketball" style of game that you see on ESPN2. I think if more of these guys went to college their overall game would be more refined.

Granted, the "education" the college player gets may or may not be legit, but there's more to college than just taking tests and going to class. Again, for me, I grew up and found out who I was-what I believed in-what I stood for-etc.

How about this one to make it even harder...

Age restriction, and college degree required to enter the league. Mandatory. Then the kids who worship these players would instantly understand that education is not only important, it's impossible to move into the league without it.

Ignorant statements by Jermaine O'Neal IMO.



He's your run of the mill smart ass punk kid with too much money and too much mouth. Not enough of what we call, "da social skills." He's a fucking racist for even saying that. But we can't say that shit these days. :wtf: Fuck him. I hate basketball by the way. Out.

Age limit needs to be enforced. It'll make the college game better. I know for a fact DePaul got screwed a couple times in a last couples years by recruits going NBA at the last minute.

Granted, the "education" the college player gets may or may not be legit, but there's more to college than just taking tests and going to class. Again, for me, I grew up and found out who I was-what I believed in-what I stood for-etc.

That's another great point. I know for alot of hockey kids, it's sort of a shock for them once they hit the league because alot of them didn't have the "college experience." And as you pointed out, that's more then just going to class and taking tests. I agree that it's important that these kids experience college life, as well as get the experience on the court.

Granted, the "education" the college player gets may or may not be legit, but there's more to college than just taking tests and going to class. Again, for me, I grew up and found out who I was-what I believed in-what I stood for-etc.

I'm not there, but I just don't see these "student"/athletes, especially the better ones, having the same kind of college experience as the rest of the students. I imagine them being pampered and catered to the minute the university starts courting them...

I could be wrong, though...

I don't agree with an age limit. If GM's want to fuck themselves by drafting 18 yr old kids that won't be ready to play until 3 or 4 yrs down the road... let them.

I'm stunned to read these comments. I agree with Wray. If you're 18, then you should be eligible to earn a living.

So if you're a computer genius, then Microsoft shouldn't be able to hire you until you have at least a year or two of college to hone your skills? Bullshit.

College is not a minor league. Get some of these mercenary assholes OUT of college and the game would be better. College should be there for people who want to get an EDUCATION, not some mandatory stopping point for an athlete who wants no part of it.

That age limit is pure bullshit. If they aren't productive, then don't draft them.

The racism comment is a bit more complex. I think there IS a cultural bias here. If all of the "kids" coming out of HS were corn-fed suburbanites with "proper" manners, IMO you wouldn't be seeing such an uproar. Is it directed at "blacks"? No, but it is directed at a culture that is predominantly black. I don't know if that's racist by intent, but it is by impact. Which is what O'Neal was saying. The age limit will have the IMPACT (perhaps without intent) of holding back some number of 18 and 19 years olds, however small that number is, from making millions of dollars, and those kids being held back are almost all black.

When you enact a work-place policy that has a detrimental affect on a group of people, and most if not all of those people are black (or any other individualized group), then you have a discriminatory policy. It's called disparate impact, and it is a fairly common legal issue in employment law.

Come on IED, do you really believe that college basketball is not the equivalent to the minor leagues for basektball?

Espescially with all the money that changes hands behind the scenes with the boosters. In some instances some of these college ball players get paid more then a guy playing Triple A baseball in some small town.

Come on IED, do you really believe that college basketball is not the equivalent to the minor leagues for basektball?

Espescially with all the money that changes hands behind the scenes with the boosters. In some instances some of these college ball players get paid more then a guy playing Triple A baseball in some small town.

Your second paragraph is exactly why your first paragraph isn't true. If there was a true minor league, the players would be on their own, making peanuts, living in 2-star motels instead of cushy dorms or frat houses, no boosters and others catering to 'em, no one there to hand them the keys to a shiny new SUV for coming to their school, probably wouldn't be on ESPN or CBS or any other network - they'd be playing in near anonymity, trying to prove themselves to get the call to the big show instead of being paraded around as the next big thing and being lauded by Dicky Vitale.

That would be an education!

Yea but not all minor league players are exactly roughing it. You can make a pretty good buck playing in some minor leagues, but I will say that there are a ton of leagues out there where those guys are playing for peanuts as you put it. Busting their humps riding the bus to every away game. For those guys, I have a ton of respect for.

I think an age limit would help the game of basketball.

It would help the players themselves,the college game, and the NBA game.

I'm not there, but I just don't see these "student"/athletes, especially the better ones, having the same kind of college experience as the rest of the students. I imagine them being pampered and catered to the minute the university starts courting them...

I could be wrong, though...

...or you could be right. Granted, they probably wouldn't have the same experiences that I did. However, every current NBA player being interviewed eventually gets asked the age question. All of them with some college experience said the same thing: "It was the best time of my life."

I'm stunned to read these comments. I agree with Wray. If you're 18, then you should be eligible to earn a living.

So if you're a computer genius, then Microsoft shouldn't be able to hire you until you have at least a year or two of college to hone your skills? Bullshit.

College is not a minor league. Get some of these mercenary assholes OUT of college and the game would be better. College should be there for people who want to get an EDUCATION, not some mandatory stopping point for an athlete who wants no part of it.

That age limit is pure bullshit. If they aren't productive, then don't draft them.

The racism comment is a bit more complex. I think there IS a cultural bias here. If all of the "kids" coming out of HS were corn-fed suburbanites with "proper" manners, IMO you wouldn't be seeing such an uproar. Is it directed at "blacks"? No, but it is directed at a culture that is predominantly black. I don't know if that's racist by intent, but it is by impact. Which is what O'Neal was saying. The age limit will have the IMPACT (perhaps without intent) of holding back some number of 18 and 19 years olds, however small that number is, from making millions of dollars, and those kids being held back are almost all black.

When you enact a work-place policy that has a detrimental affect on a group of people, and most if not all of those people are black (or any other individualized group), then you have a discriminatory policy. It's called disparate impact, and it is a fairly common legal issue in employment law.

Let me throw me two cents in here: I don't think comparing Microsoft and playing in the NBA as the same thing. I doubt seriously the computer geek/genius is getting showered w/money, girls, etc as the star ball player is. Also, when hired by Microsoft, I doubt seriously he's making the kind of jack the NBA players are making. To be honest, most of the computer guys I knew were quite mature. Yes, colllege is not a minor league system for the NBA. Its there to better yourself-personally and as an athlete. GM's are afraid that if they don't draft the next h.s. kid they will miss out on another Kobe/Lebron/etc and that their asses will be in a sling down the line-look at Kwame Brown, what a waste he is for a number 1 pick. So they toil on the bench pouting as they don't play as that same team is in the lottery the following year. Again, look at Duncan, he could have come out early in his college days, yet he stayed for 4 years. Upon arriving, he had an immeadiate impact on his team. Kobe/O'Neal/Garnett/many, many others had little to no impact on their teams until at least 3 years down the line. And yes, the "racism" thing is more complicated. IMO, O'Neal chose his words wrong. I don't think Stern is sitting in his office thinking of ways to screw over the black community. The NFL has an age limit in place (indirectly-have to be in after 3 years after your h.s. class graduated) and it seems to have worked quite well. Look at Clarrett-everyone thought he was the 2nd coming of Dickerson and look at him now. He can barely run a 5.0 40. But that's another discussion all together.

You guys are missing the point.

First, sucka, I didn't say that college hoop isn't in practice a minor league, it is, just as it is in football. But that shouldn't be encouraged. I'm of the opinion that you should want to be in college if you're going to go take up a scholarship. It's bad for college basketball to have this going on, guys leaving after a year or two. In fact, I personally think that it should go back to where freshman should be ineligible for college athletics, but that's another argument. Now, would college hoop be better if these guys played 4 years? Yes. Would the player be better prepared for life and the NBA after 4 years of college? Mostly yes, but not absolutely. LeBron's game may have deteriorated against inferior competition. And who are you to decide how someone is to live their life?

csm, the money, and the girls are irrelevant. It IS the same thing as Microsoft. You are talking about a company employing someone in his or her chosen profession. Other than the NFL, find me ONE other sport or profession that "forces" you into college or has an age limit above 18 years old. I mean, there has to be one somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can think of it. Every other sport allows any ages, with some limitations for legal juveniles. Only the NFL has an actual "age" limit, and even that is tied into HS graduation dates.

Can the NBA legally set an age limit? Probably. But it's not right, and it hurts blacks in disproportionate numbers. No, not intentionally, but you are asking black kids who can make millions now to wait a few years, risking injury, risking getting a shitty coach and regressing, risking it all, actually. If they can get their millions now, who are we to say they can't? I'm sure you'd feel the same if you were Sebastion Telfair.

Other than the NFL, find me ONE other sport or profession that "forces" you into college or has an age limit above 18 years old. I mean, there has to be one somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can think of it...

The only other sport that I'm aware of that has any kind of age limit is NASCAR, with their top two divisions (Nextel Cup and Busch Series) - and that's only because of the cigarette and liquor advertising. I think the Craftsman Truck Series may be included as well.

Okay, that's one, but that is very understandable, and perhaps a legal issue as well where they don't have a choice.

Okay, so you've got the NFL with a defacto age limit, and the NBA wanting one. No other sport.

Hmmm, what demographic groups are those age limits in BOTH sports affecting the most in a detrimental fashion? It ain't white suburbia, that's for sure. Hockey, baseball, soccer - you know, those sports where blacks are in the minority, they either don't have age limits, or they set it at or even lower than 18. Why is there no outcry? Why aren't we decrying those poor white minor leaguers who don't get a college education? College baseball has been shown to be a better bet for the draft than high schoolers, but you don't hear a peep about getting kids into college.

So, what you're doing, is taking this group of 18 year old athletes, primarily black athletes, and telling them "hey guys, you could make millions, but we are going to impose this arbitrary age limit so you have to wait a few more years, because we think we know what's best for you, even though we don't do it for any other sports". Hunh. Yeah, that's not racist at all :rolleyes:

Hockey does have an age limit some what. It may not be set in stone, but if a player is very gifted then they'll give him a shot to play. But almost all the time young players get sent down to the minors or the junior leagues to bulk up and better their game. Those young players that happen to make it to the NHL do take a beating because their bodies just aren't as developed as a 28yr old, 6'7 250lb man. But even still those young players are protected by guy's that are paid to kick ass.

My point is this. The NBA game is clearly not as good as it once was. I personally believe that it has to do with a number of players not getting the proper coaching they could recieve on the collegiate level, or even playing in Europe. A team can draft whomever they want, I don't really have that problem. There are always going to be those kids out there that are close to being NBA ready so a team takes a chance. There are plenty of guys that came out of high school, or only spent a year in college and just aren't ready for the NBA game. It just is what it is.

Maybe they shouldn't have an age limit, but something should be done to encourage these kids to go to school. Not only for the education, but just to better their overall game. I'll always point at Tim Duncan and how great a player he turned out to be coming out of Wake Forrest. It may not be for everyone, and I don't mind guy's getting their pay day, but I just wish more of them took advantage of the college experience.

It has to be looked at as a maturity issues as well. Like it or not the NBA players are role models for today's youth. The NBA image is being destroyed by thugs. The brawl earlier this year seriously hurt the NBA's image. I sit in meetings where kids are asked what their future goals and plans are. The majority always say professional basketball player. I always say "what happens if your knee is injured and prevents you from playing?" the answer is usually "rap star". That is the kind of image and impact "professionals" have on kids. Now granted this is probably only a small part of the equation, but it is a part nonetheless.

Okay, that's one, but that is very understandable, and perhaps a legal issue as well where they don't have a choice.

Okay, so you've got the NFL with a defacto age limit, and the NBA wanting one. No other sport.

Hmmm, what demographic groups are those age limits in BOTH sports affecting the most in a detrimental fashion? It ain't white suburbia, that's for sure. Hockey, baseball, soccer - you know, those sports where blacks are in the minority, they either don't have age limits, or they set it at or even lower than 18. Why is there no outcry? Why aren't we decrying those poor white minor leaguers who don't get a college education? College baseball has been shown to be a better bet for the draft than high schoolers, but you don't hear a peep about getting kids into college.

So, what you're doing, is taking this group of 18 year old athletes, primarily black athletes, and telling them "hey guys, you could make millions, but we are going to impose this arbitrary age limit so you have to wait a few more years, because we think we know what's best for you, even though we don't do it for any other sports". Hunh. Yeah, that's not racist at all :rolleyes:

I guess it just depends on your perspective of things. If somebody wants to make a racist argument about it, well, they can. Just like you did... It's a good argument, I guess, if you want to play the race card.

I don't think it has anything to do with race. I agree with Sucka's post. The NBA sucks right now. Draft them, give them their payday, signing bonus, endorsements, whatever. But let's develop the game a little bit. Get it back to what it was.

I don't even care about college. But let's have players go through a development process that really betters their game...

Take Lebron, for example. He's awesome in the NBA. But did anybody notice he didn't get any playing time in the Olympics? He got called for traveling every time he got the ball and he HURT the squad when he was on the floor... The only time he was effective was when, uh, he had a breakaway...

It's no wonder why the US got their asses handed to them in the Olympics. And it's NOT just because we didn't send our best players...