CANTON, Ohio (AP) -- Quarterbacks Dan Marino and Steve Young and wide receiver Michael Irvin were among 15 finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame announced Tuesday.

Marino, who holds many of the NFL's career passing records, and Young, who led San Francisco to the 1994 NFL title, were among four finalists who made the list in their first year of eligibility.

The others were Irvin, a member of the Dallas teams that won three Super Bowls between 1992 and 1995, and the late Derrick Thomas, who played for Kansas City and died in 2000 of injuries suffered in an auto accident.

Two of the finalists had already been determined -- senior nominees Fritz Pollard and Benny Friedman.

Pollard, who played in the 1920s, also was the first black to coach an NFL team. Friedman played for several teams between 1927 and 1934.

The other nominees were linebacker Harry Carson, who played for the New York Giants in the 1970s and 1980s and was a member of the 1986 NFL champions; defensive end Richard Dent, the MVP for the Chicago Bears in the Super Bowl following the 1985 season; defensive end L.C. Greenwood, a member of Pittsburgh's ``Steel Curtain'' teams of the 1970s; guard Russ Grimm, a member of Washington's famed ``Hogs,'' defensive end Claude Humphrey, who played for Washington and Philadelphia between 1968-81; guard Bob Kuechenberg, who played on Miami's 1972 undefeated champions, wide receiver Art Monk, a member of three Super Bowl winners with Washington; Roger Wehrli, a cornerback for the St. Louis Cardinals from 1969-82; and the late George Young, who built two Super Bowl winners as general manager of the Giants.

How many can go in? Is there a limit? I like a lot of those guys...

Marino I'd say should be unanimous, he's a first ballot no-brainer. I don't know about Young - I think so, but I don't have his career numbers in front of me. I know he got hung up on some bad teams, the USFL, and behind Montana for a good chunk of his career, did he stand out for long enough to be Hall worthy?

I like Carson, Kuechenburg, Grimm, Monk, Dent and Greenwood too. But frankly I just don't know enough details about them each and how they compare to those in the Hall.

Irvin? I dunno - I'd also need to see how his numbers stack up. I always thought he was more hype than substance, but maybe not. I never did like him very much.

Irvin? I dunno - I'd also need to see how his numbers stack up. I always thought he was more hype than substance, but maybe not. I never did like him very much.

750 REC, 11904 YDS, 15.9 YPC, 65 TD

I'd say that's HOF worthy, especially considering when he played. It wasn't exactly an "offensive era."

I think Marino is a shoo-in, and Derrick Thomas should be as well. Irvin and Young will go, but maybe not this year. Russ Grimm should be in, and I can't believe Art Monk isn't already. Carson and Greenwood.....tough to say. Greenwood has the benefit of being part of one the league's all-time great defenses. Carson won a Super Bowl, but there are so many big names and that's probably to his detriment. And I'd like to think the league's first black head coach would go. Hell, let 'em all in, and make Irvin pay for the beer. :thumb:

I just saw on ESPNEWS that there is 3-6 player limit.

I think Marino, Young and Thomas are shoo-ins, and maybe Irvin too, even though i never liked the guy. Everyone else, is before my time, i dunno much about any of them.

Irvin is a shoo-in, and so is Marino and Young. No question.

Marino is an absolute shoo-in. He's only the best quarterback to play the game-please, don't start the whole "Well how many superbowls did he win". If that is the criteria for greatness, then Mark Rypen, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Jim McMahon, and Brad Johnson are better than Marino (if my smilies were fixed, I'd insert the eyes rolling one here). As I've said to the morons I work with, superbowls go to very good TEAMS. Marino was a great player on several Dolphin teams surrounded by average talent. He never had a 1000 yard rusher or played with an Hall of Fame wide out or had an outstanding defense, except for towards the end of his career maybe. Irvin is hard for me b/c I can't stand the guy. I'm not sold on Young. Grim I think should be in, as well as Thomas.

...defensive end Claude Humphrey, who played for Washington and Philadelphia between 1968-81...

Why do I recall Claude Humphrey as a Falcon?

Michael Irvin can wait a few years. Maybe he can go have another party in Las Colinas. I'm sure the folks there would love to see him...

The next person that says shoo-in here will be banned! :yell: :D

750 REC, 11904 YDS, 15.9 YPC, 65 TD

I'd say that's HOF worthy, especially considering when he played. It wasn't exactly an "offensive era."

Great point, and also the fact that the NFC was so great defensively back then. Particularly the NFC East with the Eagles, Giants, and Skins. He deserves to get in for sure.

750 REC, 11904 YDS, 15.9 YPC, 65 TD

I'd say that's HOF worthy, especially considering when he played. It wasn't exactly an "offensive era."


Those are stats cut short due to injury. I wish he could have played longer. Sterling Sharpe too.

I hope the "INTIMIDATOR" Michael Irvin makes it.Since it's obvious Marino and Young will go.

Marino is an absolute shoo-in. He's only the best quarterback to play the game-please, don't start the whole "Well how many superbowls did he win". If that is the criteria for greatness, then Mark Rypen, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Jim McMahon, and Brad Johnson are better than Marino (if my smilies were fixed, I'd insert the eyes rolling one here). As I've said to the morons I work with, superbowls go to very good TEAMS. Marino was a great player on several Dolphin teams surrounded by average talent. He never had a 1000 yard rusher or played with an Hall of Fame wide out or had an outstanding defense, except for towards the end of his career maybe. Irvin is hard for me b/c I can't stand the guy. I'm not sold on Young. Grim I think should be in, as well as Thomas.

I totally respect your opinion. Marino was a damn good quarterback and will be elected to the HOF in his first year of eligibility.

But, Joe Montana is the greatest QB in NFL history in my opinion. I don't believe in taking away from a QB's accomplishments just because they played on a talented team. Wins and losses is what people remember. The 49ers were as good as they were for a long time because of Montana. Not the other way around.

How many QB's would have brought SF to victory in that SB vs. CIN in '89? Certainly not Brad Johnson, Doug Williams, Dilfer etc...

Those QB's were a part of very good teams that won SB's. Notice how they never won a second SB. I really respect the QB's that won multiple Super Bowls. Now, those guys are special.

Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway.

Those QB's were a part of very good teams that won SB's. Notice how they never won a second SB. I really respect the QB's that won multiple Super Bowls. Now, those guys are special.

Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway.

Brady... :D

How do Irvin's numbers compare with Monk's? I'm surprised Monk isn't in there.

Art Monk:
888 12,026 13.5 65

Michael Irvin:

750 REC, 11904 YDS, 15.9 YPC, 65 TD

Brady... :D

Sorry 'bout that.
:( :)

Harry Carson belongs for sure. He was a dominant linebacker for the Giants long before LT got there. went to the pro bowl 9 times. Even made 25 tackles in one game. Team captain of the Giants for 10 years. Was rated the #1 "inside linebacker' in NFL history by Pro-football Weekly. And he's a class act. Anyone who's from NY/NJ area and knows about local football will agree that he belongs in the Hall.

Starr and Staubach are also multiple Super Bowl winning QB's

Montana also ranks as my pick for the best QB ever. Yes he had players, but so did Marino, he plenty of guys to throw to. There were hardly two better ends in the 80's than Mark Duper and Mark Clayton.

I'll go with this guy....
http://www.instantreplaysportcard.com/items/lithos/elway.jpg

But Montana would be right after him. I was just always more of an Elway fan because of his arm. I think he and Marino both had better arms than Montana, but Joe had amazing touch and accuracy. I don't think there's been a QB since that's better at throwing the ball at a location and letting the reciever run under it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/emm5150/marino7.jpg
There is no other!!!! No Super Bowls....big deal!!!

i'd go with elway as the best ever as well

Some of you actually think Elway was better than Marino? What, is it the SB thing? People, Elway was great, but Marino was the greatest. Numbers don't lie.

I'm getting sick of people judging greatness by championships. Since when did football become a game of individual players as opposed to a team game? Elway is a perfect example of this. He couldn't win the big one until later in his career when he finally got the supporting cast that he needed.

Brett's right, Marino had targets. What he didn't have was a Roger Craig. Had that been the case, Elway wouldn't have lost a single Super Bowl, and Jim Kelly wouldn't have lost four in a damn row.

Yeah, I know, it wasn't just the QB's, but you get my point.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/emm5150/marino7.jpg
There is no other!!!! No Super Bowls....big deal!!!

61,361 yards, 420 TD's 5,084 yards in 1984 with 48 TD's

I totally respect your opinion. Marino was a damn good quarterback and will be elected to the HOF in his first year of eligibility.

But, Joe Montana is the greatest QB in NFL history in my opinion. I don't believe in taking away from a QB's accomplishments just because they played on a talented team. Wins and losses is what people remember. The 49ers were as good as they were for a long time because of Montana. Not the other way around.

How many QB's would have brought SF to victory in that SB vs. CIN in '89? Certainly not Brad Johnson, Doug Williams, Dilfer etc...

Those QB's were a part of very good teams that won SB's. Notice how they never won a second SB. I really respect the QB's that won multiple Super Bowls. Now, those guys are special.

Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway.

I respect your opinion as well. Granted, Montana was a good quarterback, but look at all the talent he had on that team-Rathman, Rice, Clark, Lott, Millen, etc etc. Who HOF-wise did Marino have on his team? No one. Yes, Duper and Clayton were great receivers, but are they going to the HOF-highly doubtful. My whole statement when anyone brings up Montana is look what he did in K.C. When he was on a team that wasn't loaded, he didn't do what he did in San Fran. Please don't take this as I'm picking/starting a fight-just stating what I think. Elway, yes, is a great qb as well. But unlike Marino, he had a hell of a RB his last 2 years. Bradshaw, not sure about him. That team was so freaking loaded-2 1000 yards rushers one year, HOF defenese, receivers, waterboys too I'm sure. Can't really make an arguement for/against Bradshaw though, as I was a kid when he played.

Montana also ranks as my pick for the best QB ever. Yes he had players, but so did Marino, he plenty of guys to throw to. There were hardly two better ends in the 80's than Mark Duper and Mark Clayton.

Yea you are right Brett, Marino had targets, but nothing like Montana did. Sure, Duper and Clayton were great, but they are nowhere near Rice.

Some of you actually think Elway was better than Marino? What, is it the SB thing? People, Elway was great, but Marino was the greatest. Numbers don't lie.

I'm getting sick of people judging greatness by championships. Since when did football become a game of individual players as opposed to a team game? Elway is a perfect example of this. He couldn't win the big one until later in his career when he finally got the supporting cast that he needed.

Fact is though, he's a champion. That aside, I don't think that any of us are right. There is no greatest QB ever, just like there is no greatest guitarist ever. I'd personally go with Elway over Marino, Montana, Staubach, Bradshaw, Unitas, Favre, do I need to go on? It's not even about the championships, it's who I feel can give me the best chance to win every week. You can throw stats at me from every differnt angle, but for me personally, I'd go with Elway. Doesn't make me right, but I'm not wrong either. Yes he had the talent on his team later in his career, but when did that gurantee you a championship in sports? Never.

Brett's right, Marino had targets. What he didn't have was a Roger Craig. Had that been the case, Elway wouldn't have lost a single Super Bowl, and Jim Kelly wouldn't have lost four in a damn row.

Yeah, I know, it wasn't just the QB's, but you get my point.....



THANK YOU RED Someone finally giving props to Roger Craig.


http://www.sportphotogallery.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/SPGASUS100.jpg


He was just as big a part of SF's Super Bowl/NFC power. When you think of RB highlights, the one of Roger high-stepping in to the endzone against the Dolphin's, is one of the most played, printed and most remembered.

http://www.cnnsi.com/football/nfl/news/2001/05/05/sayitaintso_49ers/craig_sicover.jpg

So why isn't he getting in? He and Walter Payton were running backs that loved to throw a mind-altering block too. Not too many RB's did that then or do it now. At least not as effectively as they did.

Now, I am a little biased because he's from Davenport, Iowa, went to the same high school I did and I used to talk to him quite a bit, as I was friends with some of his immediate family. Roger is a class act and deserves to bein too.

Roger had that classic, knees high running style. Just an amazing player, and totally deserves to get in. What about John Taylor? I don't know what his career stats look like, but has there ever been a better Split End in the NFL since? Alvin Harper was pretty good when Dallas was on top, but I can't think of one as good as John Taylor.

Yes he had the talent on his team later in his career, but when did that gurantee you a championship in sports?

It doesn't. The guarantee is that you can't win without it.

...defensive end Claude Humphrey, who played for Washington and Philadelphia between 1968-81...


Why do I recall Claude Humphrey as a Falcon?


Answer - because he was a Falcon - not a Washington Redskin!

It doesn't. The guarantee is that you can't win without it.

No doubt.

Arguing best ever QB is hard to do, since they had their niches where they were the best at what they did.

If I need a gunslinger I pick Marino - he can win without a running game, and NOBODY had the pocket presence he did.

If I have a well rounded offense and need someone to guide it, make decisions, and take it over the top, I go with Montana.

Elway was pretty damn versatile. If I didn't know exactly what I needed, I'd be tempted to take Elway. Wasn't much he couldn't do.

Congrats to Marino (especiallly), Young, and the other guys who made it to the HOF. Marino was a lock-best qb ever to play and all. But two things surprised me: 1.) Derrick Thomas didn't make it in. He was almost on the same level as LT in my opinion. Plus from what I heard, he was a decent citizen off the field. 2.) Michael Irvin made it to the final ballot? Sorry, I guess I am biased-I'm not a big Irvin fan. Certainly he did some good things with the Cowboys. Personally, I believe his "off the field activities" hurt his chances for getting in. I recall when LT was going in, there were several persons rambling on and on about his drug arrests and how he shouldn't be in. I believe the HOF is for what you don ON the field and what you do off the field should have no merit to being included or not. Of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong....

Is Young the first left-handed QB to make it?

Is Young the first left-handed QB to make it?

According to ESPN, yes.