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seenbad
09.17.01, 01:44 PM
I'm very curious about the splinter of this faith that condones violence like this. Anybody know much about it?

I know that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims are originated from the same faith and have differences. Jews think they have the only route to heaven and dont recognize the Christ as the Messhia (though he is still considered a fairly respectable jew I believe) and Christians and jews have the old testamant in common. Jews also dont recognize the holy trinity of course. Christians believe the path to heaven is through Christ. How about specifics with Muslims. I know all three believe in origins from Abraham and prophets up to that point, and have at least that much in common, but at what point did muslims start recognizing other prophets and splinter the their faith off, and what are their beliefs specifically? I really have no idea. Anybody have a clue? I'd love to hear it if you do even if its a best guess (please state so if it is).

Thanks.

Goo
09.17.01, 02:07 PM
Muslims read from a book known as the Koran, and I belive it was 'written' by a prophet named mohammad (?) Its basically a similar thing to the bible, and - just like the bible - is open to misinterpretation.

We have a LOT of muslims here in Sydney, and theres a lot of people who resent their presence, so theres a lot of misinformation floating round here about them. I try to sort fact from fiction but its kinda hard sometimes, so I'll just share some minor bits I seem to have figured out. I'm probably wrong though LOL.

Basically a 'true' muslim is much as a true christian is - peacful, kind people. However there is obviously some elelment of this faith that seems to produce fundamentalists a fair bit more hardcore than other religions.

I think one of the passages of the koran that starts the trouble is one that says 'kill the infidels' - although it never really defines an infidel. Also in other parts of the Koran, murder is warned off as bearing punishment by hell. Sounds like a religous text to me.

I guess the argument to be made is the bible uses the 'eye for an eye' phrase, yet we dont go round chopping hands, penis's or whatever off anymore.

ANGEL4U
09.17.01, 02:09 PM
http://www.msnbc.com/news/629531_asp.htm#BODY

here is part of the story:

In moments of crisis like the present one, Muslims are quick to stress their bonds with Jews and Christians. Islam recognizes figures like Abraham and Moses and Jesus as prophets of the one God, Allah. Muslims study the Quran like others study the Bible, but they also look to the ahadith , or sayings and stories of Muhammad, for guidance. As Islam evolved into a great medieval civilization, various schools developed to interpret those passages in the Quran that are contradictory or unclear. Like other religions, Islam has its divisions and sects. The Shiites, for example, dominate Iran, where they have developed a hierarchy of clerical authority—the ayatollahs—roughly similar to Roman Catholicism. By contrast, the majority of Sunni Muslims are rather like Protestants in their stress on individual interpretation of the faith. And then there are the great Sufi saints and poets like Rumi who give Islam its mystical dimension.

seenbad
09.17.01, 02:32 PM
Wow. They actually recognize Jesus as a prophet of god? That is so contradictory its not even comprehendable.

I wondered about this because I've known many muslims and they seemed to be pretty outstanding people.....kill the infidels eh? So this one sect took that and ran I guess. That sect needs to go buhbuy.

Oh that eye for an eye thing is in the old testament and jewish community still holds that as a solid belief. Christ cleared that up a couple thousand years ago as he did with many interpretations (sermon on the mount in mathew), but many christians either dont get it or havn't heard it, or the particular sect has a different interpretation than jesus. I think there is probably more sects in the Chrisian faith than any other isnt there?

Anyways, the mohhamed piece is what was missing primarily for me, thank you for that. Curious now as to what he said that supposedly supercedes Christ if they actually recognize Christ as a prophet of God. What a trip.

[ September 17, 2001 at 03:34 PM: Message edited by: seenbad ]

Brett
09.17.01, 02:58 PM
A couple semi-corrections on Judaism.

The basic principle of Judaism is the belief that all people are the "sons" of God, nobody has died for our sins, or will. Obviously, Jews don't recognize the New Testament. Jews don't recognize Christ as anything more than just a person.

Islam does share a lot commonality with Judaism, apart from the belief that Christ is a prophet of God.

Jews also don't believe in hell, people don't go to hell. The funny thing is that the idea of Satan and hell did originate in the Old Testament, as I learned not too long ago, but Jews don't believe in it.

tap1966
09.17.01, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett:
The funny thing is that the idea of Satan and hell did originate in the Old Testament<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Satan is a corruption (semantically) of the Egyptian god Set. The writers of the OT had obvious reasons for re-inventing a god of their enemy as the enemy of their god.

One thing I saw pointed out today was that serious followers of Islam aren't supposed to shave their beards ( the males at least smilies/wink.gif ) - yet every picture I've seen of an alleged terrorist is of someone clean-shaven.

seenbad
09.17.01, 03:13 PM
whoa. I was way off the mark I guess. Judaism doesnt believe in satan or hell? Do all people go to heaven? What is the evil in the world? Also, I know they dont believe Christ is the saviour, but they do recognize him as a jew correct?

Brett
09.17.01, 03:17 PM
Yeppers that Christ guy is definitely a Jew. smilies/smile.gif

Jews believe if you lead a bad life, you go NOWHERE! Not to heaven, nor to hell and that your soul dies, it's not everlasting.

Now I'm doing this all from my 6 years at Hebrew school and my Bar Mitzvah, I have only gone to temple maybe 3 times in the last 18 years. smilies/smile.gif

[ September 17, 2001 at 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Brett ]

seenbad
09.17.01, 03:25 PM
gotcha smilies/wink.gif Thanks.

LA
09.17.01, 04:59 PM
SOME FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM, MUSLIMS, AND RELATED ISSUES
This overview, by the nature of the format, is very cursory. You are encouraged
to study the issues in much more depth and explore the resources named at the
end of the questions.

1. WHAT IS ISLAM?
Islam is one of the great world religions. It was articulated by the prophet
Muhammad in the seventh century. The word 'Islam' means submission-submission to
the will of God--and is derived from a word meaning peace. The name given to God
in Islam is Allah, which is the Arabic name for God.

2. WHO ARE MUSLIMS?
Muslims are people who practice the Islamic faith. Muslims are the second
largest group of religious people in the world, next to Christians. Muslim
people come from many races, nationalities and cultures. Many parts of the
Asian and African world are Muslim. About 18% of Muslims live in the Middle
Eastern Arab part of the world. However, it should be noted that all Arabs are
not Muslims. Some are Christians and others practice other religions. Many
African-Americans are Muslims as their original religion in Africa was Islam.
Muslims do not see themselves as a "new religion," but rather the last stage of
God's revelation that began with Abraham continued to Moses, Jesus and
ultimately Muhammad. Many people of American and European descent have embraced
Islam.

3. WHAT DO MUSLIMS BELIEVE?
Muslims believe in One God. They often use the words, One, Unique, Incomparable
God. They believe in angels and in the prophets through whom God's revelations
were made known. Muslims believe in life after death and in accountability for
one's actions.

4. DO MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST?
Muslims believe Jesus Christ was a great prophet. They do not believe that
Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, the son of God.

5. IS THERE ANY CONNECTION BETWEEN MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANITY?
Muslims trace their origins back to Abraham as do Jews and Christians. They
believe that Muhammad, their great prophet, was descended from Abraham's son
Ishmael and that Moses and Jesus were descendents of Isaac. Muslims believe in
many of the prophets of the Old or First Testament as well as in the prophetic
mission of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

6. WHO WAS MUHAMMAD?
Muhammad was born in 570 and orphaned as a young child. As he grew up people
noticed that he was a truthful, generous and sincere person. He was deeply
religious and contemplative. He was known as a fair arbitrator. According to
Islamic belief when Muhammad was forty years old he received his first
revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel. His revelations continued for 23
years. The revelations were written down and formed the Islamic holy book or
Qur'an (Koran). The Qur'an has passages very similar to the Hebrew and
Christian scriptures, plus unique revelations that Muhammad received.

7. DO CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN MUHAMMAD?
Christians recognize Muhammad as a great religious leader. The Catholic Church
has a high regard for Muslims.

8. HOW DO MUSLIMS PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION?
There are five pillars in Islam:
One: THE CREED The creed is very simple. Basically, it is as follows:
There is no god except God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Two: PRAYER Prayer is central to Muslim religious practice. Muslims pray
five times a day: dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall. Muslims
pray in mosques or wherever they are. The prayers are based on the Qur'an and
said in Arabic, although personal petitions are said in the vernacular.
Three: FASTING During the month of Ramadan Muslims fast from dawn until
sundown as a means of purification and as a way of identifying with the hungry
of the world. The Muslim calendar is based on a lunar year. This year Ramadan
begins toward the end of November.
Four: PURIFYING TAX (Zakat) Muslims believe that all things belong to God and
that possessions are a trust given to people. The "Purifying Tax" is a way of
exercising detachment from things as well as a way of providing for the poor.
It is similar to the concept of stewardship or tithing in the Judeo-Christian
tradition.
Five: PILGRIMAGE The journey to Mecca is required once in a life time, if it
is possible. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia.

9. WHAT ARE SOME OTHER THINGS UNIQUE TO MUSLIMS?
Muslims are restricted from eating pork or drinking alcoholic drinks. Their
weekly holy day is Friday. They worship in mosques. Three mosques are
particularly important: Mosque of Kaaba in Mecca, Mosque of the Prophet
Muhammad in Medina and Masjid Aqsa, next to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

10. WHAT HAVE MUSLIMS CONTRIBUTED TO THE QUALITY OF LIFE IN THE WORLD?
Since the early centuries of Islam, Muslims have made significant contributions
to society in the fields of medicine, chemistry, mathematics, arts, poetry,
spirituality and physics. Two well known landmarks in Chicago, the Sears Tower
and the John Hancock building were designed by a Muslim architect.

11. WHY IS IT THAT SOME PEOPLE ASSOCIATE TERRORISM WITH ISLAM AND MUSLIMS?
There are small groups of Muslims who have distorted the practice of Islam and
the teachings of Prophet Muhammad by choosing terror and violence as a means of
fighting perceived injustice. They are extremists. This does not mean that all
Muslims are violent killers. The vast majority of Muslims oppose these violent
acts. Just because some Catholics and Protestants act violently in Northern
Ireland does not mean all Catholics and Protestants are violent. Most
Christians and Muslims live throughout the world in peace and harmony with their
neighbors. There are approximately 7,000,000 Muslims living as good neighbors
in the United States today.

12. WHAT IS THE TALIBAN THAT WE HEAR SO MUCH ABOUT THESE DAYS?
The Taliban currently rules most of Afghanistan. The country has been torn by
civil war for the last thirty years. The rise of the Taliban and the United
States' role in this is complicated. The word, 'Taliban' in Arabic means
"seekers of truth." The Taliban is an extremist Islamic group that controls
ninety percent of Afghanistan. Their interpretation of Islam is not shared by
the majority of Islamic people. Under their interpretation of the "truth,"
television, dance, film, playing cards, chessboards, fashion catalogues,
neckties, photography, kite-flying, non-religious music have been banned. Women
cannot attend school or work and generally receive little or no medical care.
Famous statues of the giant Buddhas have been destroyed. The majority of
Islamic scholars call the Taliban interpretation of Islam a gross distortion.

13. WHAT ARE THE CAUSES OF TERRORISM?
There is no easy answer to this question. Many acts of terrorism are rooted in
the experience of oppression and social injustice. Terrorists choose to use
violence to eradicate injustice rather than political processes or non-violent
approaches as Ghandi or Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. did.

14. HOW CAN TERRORISM BE ELIMINATED?
Terrorism can be eliminated by helping all people respect diversity, working for
social justice on a global scale and teaching effective skills of dialogue,
negotiation and non-violent ways to bring about change. We must also continue
to promote the sanctity and basic dignity of all human beings in such a way that
we grow in a global respect and promotion of human dignity.

15. AS CATHOLICS WHAT SHOULD OUR ATTITUDE AND OUR RELATIONSHIP TO MUSLIMS BE?
Nowhere is this better stated than in the teachings of the Second Vatican
Council:
"The Church has … a high regard for Muslims. They worship God, who is one,
living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the
hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose
faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God,
they venerate Jesus as a prophet. They honor his virgin Mother and even at times
devoutly invoke her. They highly esteem an upright life and worship God
especially by way of prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Over the centuries many
quarrels and dissensions have arisen between Christians and Muslims. The sacred
Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort
be made to achieve mutual understanding; for the benefit of all, let them
together preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice and moral values."
(Nostra Aetate 3)

Resources

For United States Bishop Conference Statement and Papal Statements: http://www.nccbuscc.org Click on "National Tragedy" The web site also has
various resources related to Confronting a Culture of Violence

Ecumenical and Interfaith Office, Archdiocese of Milwaukee, Judy Longdin
414-
769-3483 or (800) 769-9373, ext. 483.

The Institute of Islamic Information and Education, P. O. Box 41129,
Chicago, Illinois 60641-0129 Phone: (773) 777-7443) Fax (773) 777-7199

Understanding Islam and the Muslims, The Islamic Affairs Department, Embassy of Saudi Arabia, Washington DC (http://Islam.org/Mosque/uiatm/un_islam.htm)

The main local Mosque is the Islamic Society of Milwaukee Mosque at 4707 S.
13 St. 414-282-1812 The Salam School is at the same site: 414-282-0504
Humaira Bokhari,is the principal of the school

Information on the Taliban (http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/taliban.html)

What Everyone Should Know About Islam and Muslims by Suzanne Haneef, Library
of Islam, 1996

Understanding Islam, Society for Adherence to Sunnah, P.O. Box 2148,
Washington, D.C. 20013 Phone: 202-833-4993 web page (http://www.islaam.com)
web page (http://www.sunnah.com)

Milwaukee Muslim Women's Coalition 414-964- 6692

seenbad
09.17.01, 06:17 PM
Holy shit LA! smilies/eek.gif You really came through on that one! Mmmmmwwwaaah! smilies/wink.gif

AbeVanHalen
09.17.01, 06:58 PM
14. HOW CAN TERRORISM BE ELIMINATED?
Terrorism can be eliminated by helping all people respect diversity, working for
social justice on a global scale and teaching effective skills of dialogue,
negotiation and non-violent ways to bring about change. We must also continue
to promote the sanctity and basic dignity of all human beings in such a way that
we grow in a global respect and promotion of human dignity.


Let's all just sit down and have a nice, in-depth talking-to with the terrorists. Maybe give them whatever they want, just to appease them, and ACCEPT them for their violent ways. After all, just because we disagree with their means does not make them 'wrong'. Only our American arrogance would lead us to believe so, even if their own religion does not condone their brutal violence on innocent people thousands of miles away. smilies/rolleyes.gif

Ya know, we've tried for AGES to be peacemakers among terroristic nations, and look what it got us. Anyone who thinks that we can eliminate terrorism in a peaceful manner is only fooling themselves. Whoever was the original author of the answer to that question above is living in a dream world. If we were to follow the answer provided, terrorism would reign supreme over the entire planet in a short period of time.

Pabs
09.17.01, 07:05 PM
Or maybe the CIA can offer them a million bones to rat out bin Laden! smilies/biggrin.gif

LA
09.18.01, 04:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seenbad:
Holy shit LA! smilies/eek.gif You really came through on that one! Mmmmmwwwaaah! smilies/wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've gotta come clean on this one. A friend (who is a teacher) sent me that info, but it seemed to answer the questions that were asked here. She did all the research, and supported it with the links, etc. Antoinette's the author on that one...

LA
09.18.01, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbeVanHalen:
14. HOW CAN TERRORISM BE ELIMINATED?
Terrorism can be eliminated by helping all people respect diversity, working for
social justice on a global scale and teaching effective skills of dialogue,
negotiation and non-violent ways to bring about change. We must also continue
to promote the sanctity and basic dignity of all human beings in such a way that
we grow in a global respect and promotion of human dignity.


Let's all just sit down and have a nice, in-depth talking-to with the terrorists. Maybe give them whatever they want, just to appease them, and ACCEPT them for their violent ways. After all, just because we disagree with their means does not make them 'wrong'. Only our American arrogance would lead us to believe so, even if their own religion does not condone their brutal violence on innocent people thousands of miles away. smilies/rolleyes.gif

Ya know, we've tried for AGES to be peacemakers among terroristic nations, and look what it got us. Anyone who thinks that we can eliminate terrorism in a peaceful manner is only fooling themselves. Whoever was the original author of the answer to that question above is living in a dream world. If we were to follow the answer provided, terrorism would reign supreme over the entire planet in a short period of time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying that this will always work... but it certainly made an impact when Ghandi tried it! Look, violence breeds violence. Perfect example is battered children. The only way that a battered child doesn't grow up to be a batterer him/herself is if they get some counseling... they talk it out.

Obviously, getting to sit down and chat with the people who did this isn't going to be practical. But bombing the hell out of them isn't going to make them stop either. The Taliban (sp) have declared war on the US, simply because they fear that we'll harm them for harboring Bin Laden. Violence breeds violence. Somehow there has to be a way that we can do this... bring justice to those who did this... WITHOUT shedding one single drop more of American blood.

Ideally I'd love to see this handled peacefully, but... sadly, that just isn't an alternative in this case. That's what I meant when I left that item in my friend's list. I contemplated excluding it, but, I agree with her sentiment, so I left it in.

AbeVanHalen
09.18.01, 05:31 AM
We are FAR beyond peaceful resolution. And this goes FAR beyond one man. We have a network of psychotics all over the place who are MORE than willing to die for their 'cause'. And what exactly is their 'cause'? From what we've seen, it's the taking of thousands of innocent civilians. Justice? That becomes a very relative term.

We cannot cleanly seek out and find just the perpetrators; they WANT to die for their cause. Of COURSE we need to find them, and kill them, AND bury them wrapped in pigskin (which, supposedly, bars them from heaven) We need to exact a price from them that they are NOT willing to pay. That means slaughtering their wives, their kids, their pets, demolishing their homes, their swing-sets, their mosques, EVERYTHING near and dear to them. And for every mass grave we dig, toss in a few pigs and send them ALL to hell.

Then, and only then, will they think twice before being so willing to attack again. Not only that, but their own people will drag the guilty parties through the streets, saying 'enough is enough'. We cannot perform surgical strikes, and taking out their soldiers and their weapons isn't enough. They think they want a war. They thought wrong.

As nice as it would be to think that we can really do otherwise, it won't work. They have already shown us that. A cleanly fought military approach will only make more martyrs, which will spur them on to further activity. I am not being cruel or inhumane; I am talking STRATEGY. We have to create a situation that makes further terrorism no longer a desirable avenue. You can't be humane when your enemy is INHUMAN, a death machine hell-bent on destroying EVERYTHING we have built over the last few hundred years.

If we sit back and try to act peacefully, our bloodshed will NEVER cease. How many American deaths would it take to make it 'acceptable' to respond with full force? How many of our freedoms do we have to give up before we realize that it must come to an end? How many thousands of people have already died to make this country what it is today? To make a biblical reference (coming from an atheist, it may seem odd), Christ supposedly sacrificed himself so that we would not have to from that point on. The same goes to the countless men and women whose lives were lost in the struggle to establish America; every freedom we give up makes each one of those deaths a waste, and it makes the terrorists victorious in their endeavor.

If Ghandi was so successful, why does India have nuclear weapons? Peace sells...but who's buying? One way or another, there WILL be further American bloodshed. It can come in two forms-as victims, or as freedom fighters. Yes, we can minimize American casualties on the battlefields abroad. But no, we can no longer afford the luxury of being humane or even remotely peaceful in dealing with the problem. The more peaceful we are, the more civilian American blood will spill. That's a price we are NOT willing to pay.

We have the technology to keep our losses to a minimum, and of course we should do everything in our power to be as safe as possible. But at the same time, we are going to take some losses along the way. And those losses are COSTLY; let's not let them be for naught.

The time for peace came and went long ago. Anyone even suggesting it at this point is simply in denial, and is going to be offended by what is certain to occur in the near future. Peace will come, but now is not the time for it.

[ September 18, 2001 at 06:42 AM: Message edited by: AbeVanHalen ]

LA
09.19.01, 04:46 AM
Abe, I promise you that I will respond to your post! I just haven't had the time to sit still long enough to write one!! smilies/smile.gif

You're a challenge that's for sure. smilies/tongue.gif

NE169
09.19.01, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbeVanHalen:
[B]14. HOW CAN TERRORISM BE ELIMINATED?
Terrorism can be eliminated by helping all people respect diversity, working for
social justice on a global scale and teaching effective skills of dialogue,
negotiation and non-violent ways to bring about change. We must also continue
to promote the sanctity and basic dignity of all human beings in such a way that
we grow in a global respect and promotion of human dignity.


Whoever was the original author of the answer to that question above <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would that be Bill Clinton?

I read too that Muslims trace their ancestry all the way to Abraham; and supposedly even from one of Noah's sons, after the Great Flood. And that Christ is highly revered, but not the highest, either.

Does anyone know why Muslims decided to build the Dome of the Rock on Judaism's holiest site, the Temple Mount? After all, this is one of, if not the biggest, problems between the 2 faiths.

lawchick
09.19.01, 07:43 AM
Let's not forget that the Catholic Church strenuously teaches JUSTICE and believes in SELF DEFENSE! At the same time, we believe God loves all humans equally and infinitely -- even bin Lauden -- and challenges us to forgive and to value human life over all things.

In my thinking, what those teachings mean is that if bin Laden (or whoever is at fault) will not come forward peaceably, it is appropriate to use only the force reasonably necessary to shut his operations down. We must do everything in our power to prevent the loss of more innocent lives.

Essentially, we are called to think and act not like humans, but like God. This is a tough one, isn't it? We are woefully inadequate. Prayer is the biggest part of the solution.

AbeVanHalen
09.20.01, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lawchick:
Let's not forget that the Catholic Church strenuously teaches JUSTICE and believes in SELF DEFENSE!


Let's not forget the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, whereby the church went out on a massive killing spree. They justified what they did with the Bible.


At the same time, we believe God loves all humans equally and infinitely -- even bin Lauden -- and challenges us to forgive and to value human life over all things.


What makes you think bin Laden is 'human'? Human beings have certain qualities that he and his ilk do NOT seem to share. They are killing MACHINES, with NO regard for human life. I don't forgive machines.

In my thinking, what those teachings mean is that if bin Laden (or whoever is at fault) will not come forward peaceably, it is appropriate to use only the force reasonably necessary to shut his operations down. We must do everything in our power to prevent the loss of more innocent lives.

And it is just this type of soft, feelgood 'thinking' that makes us easy targets for terroristic attacks in the future. This is WAR. Make no mistake about that. WAR, not politics, not law, not feelings, WAR. If you REALLY want to prevent the loss of more innocent lives, then you MUST realize that there is no peaceful solution to the problem. And as for deaths, well, better that the enemy dies than us, or our American way of life.

Essentially, we are called to think and act not like humans, but like God. This is a tough one, isn't it? We are woefully inadequate. Prayer is the biggest part of the solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lots of people said prayers when those planes crashed into the WTC, and many of them didn't make it out. You can pray all day if that makes you feel better, but prayer ain't gonna solve the problem this time. I am sick of hearing all these calls for a 'peaceful resolution' to the problem. If we arrest the suspects without bloodshed and give them a 'fair trial' we will become the laughing stock of the world, and every terrorist will attack us because we are so weak. Even the Bible allows for war. And nowhere do I recall the Lord saying 'don't kill your fierce enemy-give him a trial in the US (or worse, the UN) court system'.

MikeL
09.20.01, 01:21 PM
I'm with Abe on this one. There's no room for mercy in the broad sense here. Wars aren't won by having pity on your enemy, or by allowing them time to pause and reflect on their actions.

Wars are won by destroying the enemy's ability to make war. In this case, that's a nebulous prospect. They don't have the ability to wage conventional war.

So we've got to terrify the terror right out of them. If they thought America was the Great Satan previously, they're in for a new perspective on life and death. It's time to teach them some respect for our way of life.

If that means ending their way of life, so be it. I won't see my freedoms lessened for the sake of someone else's threats of terror. If a way of life has to end, it will be theirs.

If that means killing hundreds of thousands of people, so be it. They've brought it on themselves. Freedom has its price.

BigBadBrian
09.20.01, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lawchick:
In my thinking, what those teachings mean is that if bin Laden (or whoever is at fault) will not come forward peaceably, it is appropriate to use only the force reasonably necessary to shut his operations down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of our lower-yield tactical nuclear weapons, perhaps?

BigBadBrian
09.20.01, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lawchick:

Essentially, we are called to think and act not like humans, but like God. This is a tough one, isn't it? We are woefully inadequate. Prayer is the biggest part of the solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, and I'm still praying that these terrorists suffer a hideously painful death!

tap1966
09.20.01, 06:37 PM
This thing starts being about religion, jihads, prayers, crusades and what the catholic church thinks at around the same time that Jehovah, Allah and Jesus hold a press conference in Jersualem to sort the whole mid-East mess out.

Until then it's about mass murder and the consequences.

NE169
09.21.01, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigBadBrian:


Yup, and I'm still praying that these terrorists suffer a hideously painful death!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Skinning them alive would be acceptable smilies/scared.gif

LA
09.21.01, 10:56 AM
Then you guys must be pretty pissed off that it's been 10 days since the attack, and all that we've managed to do in retaliation is ... what? Give the confrontation a name? Deploy a few troops?

You must be terribly disappointed that we haven't nuked anybody yet, that we haven't bombed the hell out of all of Afghanistan, Iraq, and what the hell, why not Iran. Must break your hearts that we haven't put anyone of Muslim descent in detention camps. I bet you're even more disappointed that we haven't really even more specifically pinpointed just who exactly is behind this...

Me? I'm not. We will find the answers. We will strike back. Sometimes striking the fear of vengence is good. Sometimes taking your time is the way to go. Sometimes blasting the hell out of anything that moves isn't necessarily the way to go. This war on terrorism isn't gonna be won fighting the way that we've normally fought wars, and if you think so, then you're really niave.

We've got to think outside of the box on this one. They do. We need to think more like they do. They take their time. They plan and they take YEARS before they accomplish their goals. We could take some lessons from the terrorists. Brilliant? No. Calculating? Yes. They waited what, nine years before they tried the WTC again? They plan on winning the major war. They studied to determine just how they could make those buildings topple. It wasn't any accident that those specific planes were used. They knew there was a huge fuel load. They knew what temp those girders were made to withstand. They knew how high to hit those buildings to have the most significant structural damage both upon impact and upon collapse. They aren't in any hurry. Neither should we be.

AbeVanHalen
09.21.01, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NE169:


Skinning them alive would be acceptable smilies/scared.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Only if we toss some salt on the open wounds soon after skinning! smilies/tongue.gif

Rick S
09.21.01, 11:09 AM
you cant cause much terrorism when all you have is sticks and stones left. how can people not be angry? im hurt and sad but im angry too damn it !

seenbad
09.21.01, 02:57 PM
I heard that pigs realllly fuck with their head. That if they see a pig right before they die, they go to hell or some crazy shit like that. Pigs blood gets em' too. I say we fill up a few B-52's with a bunch of pig parts just prior to bombing. Bunch of blood too. This would also be good for interigations of folks in these cells to get info out of.

Just give seenbad a knife, a pig and a paintbrush and I'll find out all you need to know about their future plans. smilies/wink.gif


Anybody know if this is true ? (before I go stock up on pig parts smilies/biggrin.gif)

tap1966
09.21.01, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rick S:
you cant cause much terrorism when all you have is sticks and stones left. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did considerable damage armed with razor blades last week.

AbeVanHalen
09.21.01, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seenbad:
I heard that pigs realllly fuck with their head. That if they see a pig right before they die, they go to hell or some crazy shit like that. Pigs blood gets em' too. I say we fill up a few B-52's with a bunch of pig parts just prior to bombing. Bunch of blood too. This would also be good for interigations of folks in these cells to get info out of.

Just give seenbad a knife, a pig and a paintbrush and I'll find out all you need to know about their future plans. smilies/wink.gif


Anybody know if this is true ? (before I go stock up on pig parts smilies/biggrin.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Images of the prom scene from Carrie keep popping into my mind. smilies/eek.gif

tribb
09.21.01, 04:44 PM
I was gonna keep out of this, but after reading some of the nonsense I've seen here I'm afraid I have to side with Abe on this one.
When the "ethnic cleansing" was going down in Serbia, are you aware that it was 50,000 of Bin Ladin's "little splinter group" that were sent over to help impart the "cleansing".
What a nice name for Mass Murder, "cleansing".
Children, mothers, elderly people, torn to peices because they weren't of the "right faith".
I guess no one sat down and had a nice talk with him to tell him how naughty it was.
Of course we could just turn the other cheek, and wait years till we dig and dig and dig until we find out who was behind this nasty thing that just a few bad men did, probably with no help from anyone at all. They just thought it up over a card game one night
In the meantime they'll be driving 757's up the free world's collective ass every chance they get.
Of course the great majority of muslims are decent caring people, but when you're refering to millions upon millions of people how can you say it's just a tiny splinter group. That's a crock of shit. Entire middle eastern countries have declared the US as the Great Satan. They've openly declared war on the US and the free world for years. How many muslims did you see marching on behalf of the US then? They were living in the US and other countries all around the world, but did you see "one" muslim group speaking out against Hussein while he was invading his muslim neighbor. There was certainly lots of marching here by muslims to oppose the US bombing of Iraq. Of course you can do that when you live in a country that gives you the freedom to say what you like openly.
Sure, blame the jews in the middle east. It's easy to find a scapegoat. Do you honestly believe that if there was no Israel that all the problems would go away and we'd never have another thing to worry about with the muslim population over there? If that's what you think, I've got some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.
All you guys that were soldiers in the middle east during the gulf war, how many churches did you see in predominantly muslim countries. Was christianity openly allowed to practice there?
The muslim faith is a very large religious faith and should be subject to the same laws that every other faith has to abide by.
These are not splinter groups. They are large segments of a religious population that is huge in itself.
Believe in any type of bible you like, but don't start telling the world how you preach love and understanding when the shit suddenly hits the fan.

ANGEL4U
09.21.01, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seenbad:
I heard that pigs realllly fuck with their head. That if they see a pig right before they die, they go to hell or some crazy shit like that. Pigs blood gets em' too. I say we fill up a few B-52's with a bunch of pig parts just prior to bombing. Bunch of blood too. This would also be good for interigations of folks in these cells to get info out of.

Just give seenbad a knife, a pig and a paintbrush and I'll find out all you need to know about their future plans. smilies/wink.gif


Anybody know if this is true ? (before I go stock up on pig parts smilies/biggrin.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is the funniest post I've read in this forum smilies/biggrin.gif

AbeVanHalen
09.22.01, 11:07 AM
I listen to a morning radio show (via internet) every day, and the host has presented a few questions regarding how Muslims here and worldwide REALLY feel about the whole situation. He asked for Muslim callers, and only found ONE, who dodged all the 'material' questions, preferring to only comment on how 'mean' the host was for even asking such things. What the host of the show is concerned about is having this whole thing blow up into a US vs Islam war, and how the MODERATE Muslims (ie those who are NOT terrorists or extremists in any way) are actually taught.

Since I went to a Catholic university, I was required to take some theology. One of those classes was a comparitive religions class on Judaism/Christianity/Islam. I still have the texts, so I dug up some startling info from the book. Keep in mind, the book was written by someone of decidedly non-Muslim roots, but she takes a very 'peace-nik' approach to the subject. She's a professor at Harvard, if it matters.

If anyone can shed some light onto these, please do. Several of the points I'll be typing here are suras, which are akin to bible verses, except that they come from the Koran.

** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **


Sura 9/29: Fight against those who do not believe in God nor in the Last Day, who prohibit not what God and His messengers have prohibited, and who refuse allegiance to the true faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand.

--note, the 'Last Day' is akin to the Christian notion of Judgment Day. Also, those who have 'received the book' includes Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, and Sabians.--

(from the text) "Because of the need to fight against non-Muslims, the world is divided into dar al-islam the 'abode of Islam', and dar al-harb, the 'abode of war'...there is no clear separation between the political and religious aspects of communal life. There are no truly profane acts either..."


---note, those come from revelations made by Mohammed late in his life. also added is that a Muslim, if living in the 'abode of war', is NOT to take part in the Friday prayer. The question then becomes 'if a Muslim lives in the US and skips Friday prayer, do they consider themselves to be in the abode of war?' Also, if there are no 'truly profane acts', does that mean that suicide missions are acceptable? Would it also mean, even if we are clearly 'non-Muslim', that our American way of life is not 'truly profane'? ---

"The so-called 'Holy War', jihad, was never a pillar of Islam...however, some modern sects HAVE added it as pillar #6."


Sura 3/163: Do not think that those slain for the sake of their Lord are dead, rather they are alive with the Lord.

(author quote):
"those slain for the sake of faith (shahid, or martyr) will enter Paradise without interrogation and will expect resurrection in a special place of Paradise."

--it is further explained that martyrs are exempt from the judgment of the Last Day; they go STRAIGHT into heaven, hence the obvious willingness for the suicide terrorists to die for their cause--


(also straight from the text) "Islamic languages have no exact term for 'secularism'; a translation often used is la dini, which means 'without religion', and has a strongly negative ring to it....In an attempt to harmonize Islam with modern civilization and contemporary trends in politics, some progressive Muslims have not hesitated to depict the Prophet as a socialist, nay, even a Marxist avant la lettre!"


---judging by that info, the US is clearly NOT within the 'abode of Islam' (since we are a secular state, as opposed to Israel or any of the 'Muslim nations'), and as such, sura 9/29's wording suggests that even though some Muslims live in the US, they must fight us. For those who argue against profiling, please keep that in the back of your mind if this turns into a US vs Muslim war.---

** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **


While I have not taken a 100% deportation stance, seeing things like the above (ie the DIRECT quotes from the Koran especially) do seem to be a cause for concern and inquiry. Even though the US was founded greatly based upon freedom of religion, it is still very much a nation born out of the Judeo-Christian traditions of the Western world. However, since it does not endorse/deny people's religious views, it is, in reality, a secular state. According to the Koran (from what I can tell), a Muslim is a Muslim first, and a citizen of a nation second. If that is how THEY view themselves, things are gonna get ugly in a heartbeat.

So, if anyone can shed any light on these things (ideally from a Muslim's perspective), I would love to hear it. There seems to be a big conflict of interest here.

[ September 22, 2001 at 12:12 AM: Message edited by: AbeVanHalen ]

seenbad
09.22.01, 11:16 AM
Damn damn damn. Thanks for taking the time to scribe that out Abe. Not good.

Pabs
09.26.01, 05:15 PM
lkjflsdk

Pabs
09.26.01, 05:24 PM
Hmmmm. Well, I'm speechless.

NE169
09.27.01, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seenbad:
I say we fill up a few B-52's with a bunch of pig parts just prior to bombing. Bunch of blood too. This would also be good for interigations of folks in these cells to get info out of.

Just give seenbad a knife, a pig and a paintbrush and I'll find out all you need to know about their future plans. smilies/wink.gif

Anybody know if this is true ? (before I go stock up on pig parts smilies/biggrin.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

seen, I can picture you making ham-on-rye sandwiches, and waving it in front of these guys' noses; if they don't talk, you'll cram 'em down their throats! smilies/devil.gif