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VH fan if lizard sings
05.04.00, 06:22 AM
i saw this is the other post, but i want to address it here... i'm wondering, first of all, what is van halen's religious background?? anyway, being a christian myself (rare in here, it seems most people in here are catholic), but anyway, being a christian, the lyrics of this song bother me... (the exact reason i don't listen to this song)... "is it right, to take the easy way, close your eyes, get on your knees and pray, now your saved by a higher voice, givin' up, givin' up, givin' up your choice," etc., etc... because of this, i can't listen to this song... i'm wondering, if this song is written about kurt cobain... does the lyrics (lines such as that) refer to what he was thinking or something??? when he killed himself?? either way, the lyric is still in the song so i can't possibly be riding down the road singing words like that... being a christian who got on his knees and prayed and got saved by a higher voice... anybody see where i'm coming from? or am i the only person in here who feels this way?

billy007
05.04.00, 06:26 AM
I'm not Catholic, but I am Christian, and before you get our Catholic friends upset, I'm here to tell you that most of them are Christians as well!

VH fan if lizard sings
05.04.00, 06:31 AM
okay okay, i meant, i'm a good old southern baptist... you get my point... i seriously hope nobody looks at that post and takes offense... there was absolutely no pun intended...

Glenn
05.04.00, 07:34 AM
I find it fascinating that the lyrics to that song have touched you that way. And believe me, I totally respect your interpretation of them and your not wanting to listen to the song. I would have to think that when writing such lyrics, the line would blur somewhat as to how much it is about Kurt, and how much it is meant about Sam himself. Sammy himself probably couldn't tell you exactly where that line begins and ends. For me, that's what makes a lyric great; when you can interpret it in different ways.

To be honest Lizard, I'm not sure exactly which part offends you. Is it the interpretation that when you get down on your knees and accept God you give up your own choice, thereby becoming his slave? Understand, that's not my interpretation of religion, just so you know that I'm not trying to offend you.http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif

VH fan if lizard sings
05.04.00, 08:04 AM
glenn... wow!, a respectful reply asking me about my post without fussing and cussing (not saying you do that at all, referring to a LOT of other people)... thanks...

basically what bothers me is just what it says... "get on your knees and pray, now youre saved by a higher voice, givin' up... your choice"... i mean, to me, i take that as "youre giving up your choice by getting saved"... and that you shouldnt do that... i mean, i don't know... it may be giving up my choice, but that's what i'm supposed to do (according to my religion).. you know?!? so i'm not cutting on that particular part of the lyric... but, i mean, to me, it's saying you shouldnt do that... i.e. you shouldnt get saved... that's just my interpretation of it... i mean, "am i right, to take the easy way...?" to me (as a christian), that's not a lyric i want God to see me singing http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif you know... what do you think?

FORD
05.04.00, 08:08 AM
Sammy did say at the time that the song was referring to Kurt Cobain. But I believe it was also influenced by the events in Sammy's own life at the time. He was going through a divorce, and he had known Ed Leffler longer than the other guys at the time of his death.

As for the question of the lyrical reference to "giving up my choice". There are people who actually believe God is supposed to tell them to do everything, and that (metaphorically speaking) we're like the Hebrews wandering around in the desert otherwise. Nothing against anyone's religious viewpoint, but I prefer to think that God gave me a brain and He expects me to use it. We always have a choice. Some times the choices are wrong or just plain stupid. (and I won't even get into the eternal implications) but still are ours to make.

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F.O.R.D. Country (http://www.geocities.com/ford7896)

Eat Us And Smile!!

[This message has been edited by FORD (edited May 04, 2000 at 09:10 AM).]

dropdeadlegs
05.04.00, 08:29 AM
Ford, I gotta say you are probably the most articulate person to post on VHlinks. Whatever the issue, you get your point across so well.

Glenn
05.04.00, 08:50 AM
I guess this is going to get a bit heavy, but here goes anyway. My wife's mother passed away a month ago, and needless to say, this last month has been terrible for her. My wife was raised Catholic, but it's been years since she paid any attention to religion at all. With her Mom dying, she's going through all the different emotions, one of which has her very angry at God and questioning why He would take such a good person when there are bad people in the world.

At one point last week she mentioned wanting to go and speak to a Priest and ask him why God did this. Now, understand, I respect religion and am all for it, but I personally haven't taken religion into my life. Anyway, I told her that if she wanted to talk to a Priest she should, but she was looking for an answer that doesn't exist on this earth.

I don't want to be mis-understood with this next part, so don't take this wrong. For me, religion is more "faith" than it is "fact". What I mean is, it's not about what you can see and touch, but more about what you believe and what your heart believes. A Priest is a man with supreme faith, but in the end is still a man.

In the end, and I think this ties back in with your point Lizard, the song questions religion, but doesn't dismiss it. My feeling is if you are a Christian, and you have a moment where you question your faith, when you get back on track it's possible that you can be an even stronger Christian. I believe that life is in many ways a leap of faith, and God has entrusted you, as a practicing Christian to take that leap knowing that you'll one day return. Whether you return this Sunday, or 100 sundays from now is up to you (or me or whoever). I hope this made some sense, sorry if it didn't.http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif

Georgie
05.04.00, 09:18 AM
I do know that Edward and Alex are Christian but I am not sure of what denomination. Gary is Catholic and Dave is Jewish. I do not know about Mike. I am actually not sure about sammy but I do know he is of Italian decent, so I will speculate that there is more then a 75% chance that he is of Christian upbringing. ( Sammy is notorious for mentioning "The Trinity" or references of the trinity and "Jesus" in his lyrics.)

VH fan if lizard sings
05.04.00, 09:22 AM
good posts guys...

i do believe that God made us to where we have choices... we have to choose whether what religion we follow, we have to choose whether or not to believe in religion or not... so i believe God made us that way, and i do believe that sam was referring to religion... i think he was saying that by getting saved or whatever, youre giving up religious type choices or something, i don't know...
as far as catholics, the only thing is that they believe you can only talk to God through a priest... if you want God to know something, or pray, or ask for forgiveness, you have to visit a priest who is a man, and who sins himself... but i'm not gonna get all deep into religion and stuff.. mainly because i don't know too much of what i'm talking about http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif but, my thing doesnt branch too far from the basics of the lyrics... it sounds like sam says it's not right to get on your knees and get saved... so...

billy007
05.04.00, 09:27 AM
I haven't heard the song, but I just went over and checked out the full lyric, and it does seem as it is written from the perspective of someone experiencing a crisis of faith, 'cause after the part VH fan... mentions he says "If I'm wrong, then I'll pay for it, If I'm right, yeah you're gonna hear about it..." which to me seems to say if he's wrong about getting saved he's going to hell, but if he's right and there is no God, then he's gonna rub those who believed in a God's faces in it. I don't know if that's what Sammy really felt at the time or if that was just a perspective he was trying to achieve.

BrownSound1
05.04.00, 09:28 AM
Wow, I'm impressed with the conduct on this subject. Usually a topic as potentially volitale as religion ends up with argument. I agree with what FORD said about God giving you a brain, and expecting us to use it. I personally know people who actually pray for parking spots to come open. Now to me, that is wasting you're energy and God's time (not that time has bearing on God, but you know what I mean.) Prayer is meant for important things, not parking spaces.

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Eat Us And Smile!!!!!

"I won't go down in history, but I will go down on your sister!"...David Lee Roth

Rick S
05.04.00, 10:32 AM
you know also it s just a song....those are sammy s veiws , from his songs i dont think sammy s much into organized religion..which anyone likes or not is pretty corrupt in some areas...i think he s saying im a human being , i can think for myself , if i wanna make a decision it s my choice, whatever happens is between me and god or whoever and its none of your buisness....id say listen to Mine all mine if you want to hear an anti organized religion song....

redfire
05.04.00, 10:57 AM
For the record, I am a Christian. And I don't particularly like the lyrics, but I'll listen to it every once in awhile. Like today for instance I listened to it but that is because a friend of mine lost her father this week and actually I had Balance in before I found that out and the random on it came out to track 3. Any way, as I have already addressed this issue once today in Song and Albums, I will repeat it. I don't remember the name of the topic but its in my forum and I had the last reply in there, so it should be on top. Look at Sams lyrics in Mine All Mine, Judgement Day, Humans Being. Judgement Day is all about putting of his saving until the day of Judgement. Humans Being, " There is just enough Christ in me to make me feel almost guity, is that why he made us breed, to make us see we're Humans Being." My point is I think Sammy is talking about his own salvation. Look at the lyrics for Don't Tell Me, in my opinion, I think Sam is saying Don't Tell Me about God's love. But like FORD said about Cobain, I'll believe him. Just cause FORD is always right. But Sammy made a sort of song like this on every album except 5150, which in its own right is odd (5150 ... criminally isane code for LA or whatever). That's why I think Sammy has unresolved issues with God but that's just my opinion.

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Eat Us And Smile!

Cause you can't get this stuff no more.

It's Showtime!

I feel like a running politician. Just trying to please you all the time.

[This message has been edited by redfire (edited May 04, 2000 at 12:09 PM).]

redfire
05.04.00, 11:04 AM
Also, I almost forgot about this one from 5150. In BOBW, Sam says "You don't have to die and go to heaven or hang around to be born again." That also has to do with being saved like Don't Tell Me and Judgement Day.

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Eat Us And Smile!

Cause you can't get this stuff no more.

It's Showtime!

I feel like a running politician. Just trying to please you all the time.

Stuff No More
05.04.00, 11:26 AM
I never had a problem with those lyrics (unlike the song Heresy by Nine Inch Nails), but here's my take on one way to look at it.

Sometimes in life you have to admit there are things you can't control, can't save, can't change. There are things bigger than you. Like when you're forced to watch a relative die from a disease. You want to be able to jump in their, wave a magic wand, and make everything better so all your loved ones stay with you.

But there comes like this when you have to just put yourself and the situation in the hands of God (or whatever higher power you believe in) and trust in "his" judgement and "his" wisdom, that everything will work out for the best.

Hence, in this aspect you "Get down on your knees and pray" and trust in "a higher voice" but, in this aspect, "giving up your choice." It's not that you're only saved by being controlled, just sometimes major problems are beyond our scope.

Take it as you will.

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"That's How it Is When You Tell the Truth"
Up Front Fanatic

VH fan if lizard sings
05.04.00, 12:03 PM
i agree, this is really great that we are all sane enough to talk about such a controversial topic without argument and cutting down on people's beliefs... religion has always been something i'm not gonna get too deep into... i kinda feel that if an atheist (for example) comes up to me and starts questioning WHY i feel the way i do, and worship the way i do, then i'm gonna get kinda pissed... i'm not very knowledgable, i just know that when i was die-hard into church (early 90's), when i first got saved, i felt the power of God... i KNOW i'm right because of what i believe... i have to believe that... just like the atheist KNOWS he's right... i'm not gonna question him, because i don't want to be questioned... you know... so i just let it be... i'm really not gonna question someone's beliefs... i might disagree and if asked, i'll tell him/her that... but that's it... in many ways, i admire people who stick with their religion... at the dining hall one time, here on campus, a guy that works there stood over in the corner and started worshipping something... i think he was Hindu, or something... whatever it is where they have to face the east... anyway, he stood over there while all them people were looking at him like he was an idiot... BUT, heck, i admire the guy... look at what he was doing, he was sticking to what he believes in, you know... though i don't believe in what he believes, at least he's proud of it and sticks to it... i mean, gosh, i'd probably be embarrassed to pray before a meal... but he's not afraid to do all that stuff he does... so i admire those who stick with it... anyway... i forgot my point... maybe i'll think of it later

houseofpain
05.04.00, 08:18 PM
Okay kudos for the conduct everyone. Okay for the record I am a Christian also, even though I have a great tendency to not behave like one. More specifically, if you care about denominations, Freewill Baptist. Now the reasoning here is that there are basically two kinds of Baptists Calvinists and Freewill'ers. John Calvin, a religious leader of the 19th century, presented his ideology that we enter into a covenant relationship with God when we accept Christ, and that everything is preordained, and that there are no backslidden Christians, those who are considered Backslidden must have not really recieved Grace and must be born again...again! Now here is where the freewill guys left, I'm not saying anything is right or wrong, but how can you're salvation be preordained, the Bible says God wants us to make the choice, to accept salvation openly and without regrets. So to me how can you say oh well if he sinned he must have never really gotten salvation. You know how many teens would be at the Alter repenting every Sunday if we felt that way? All of them, and me too!

Okay that out of the way, several points to make. On redrocker.com Sammy has an ask Sammy questions forum. Couple of weeks ago someone asked him about Sympathy For The Human. Basically said it talks about all these religions and wondeed about Sammy's beliefs. Sammy's reply was like, There are many religions believing in a higher power or being and that is great for anyone to believe, but you know it all gets us where we're all goin' when its done anyway. I'm recalling this mostly as I remember it guys so if its off a bit I do apologize.

Next point, my problem with the lyrics. I only got one problem with 'em, bear the cross, just like Jesus Christ. I don't like that. It says to me Sammy is now wanting to take the sins of the world upon himself just as Christ did. That is very bad to say. I shudder quoting it hoping God doesn't zing a lightening bolt my way quotibng them here! Also don't like it when he says I'll bear the Cross on Judgement Day.

Last point. My religion basically says there's one way to heaven. Accept Christ blood shed on the cross as an attonement for your sins. To recieve grace, one must confess he has sinned, believe Christ died on the cross as an attonement for our sins and that he arrose on the third day conquering both sin and death.Then ask Jesus to save him from his sins, come into his heart, and help one to be more Christlike. John 3:16 says God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Baisc fundamental concept of Christianity. I capitalize ONLY because there are some religions professing to be Christian, that believe Jesus wasn't the only Son of God. In fact believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. The same founders of these particular religions profess to be Christians to get people in, but then have some serious cult like behavior inside. I'm not an expert on this, I have a friend who formerly belonged to this religion as he grew up in it, I'm just saying what he has told me. So if you guys ever have any guiys in white shirts on bikes show up on your doorstep on Saturday morning at 8:00 waking you from an alcohol induced state, rather than telling them to get off your porch, you can prove them wrong with John 3:16. Also another easy one to discount anyone trying to question your faith is John 14:6- I am the way the truth and the light. No man comes to the Father except by Me. Kinda lays it out there in plain English. Anyway, sorry I took so much space, and I hope I haven't offended anyone. When I took Philosophy in college I learned a very important thing, my religion is based on blind faith, so if I want others to respect my beliefs, I should extend them the same courtesy!

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Eat Us And Smile!

It's Showtime!

The Innovator Of Violence!

houseofpain
05.04.00, 08:36 PM
I would like to state that employers are very accomodating of religions other than Christianity. At the hospital I worked at prior to this one, I worked with a Muslem. Got no problem with them, understand. However this guy will not work on Sundays at all, ever for any reason. Also everyday he disappeared for an hour to face Mecca and say his prayers. I'm all for letting you exercise your beliefs, and employers giving you that courtesy. However, myself an other Christians were never extended the same courtesy. I said I am a Christian, I believe the Sabbath day is holy and God commanded us to rest on the Sabbath, my boss said so what, you're going to do your turn working every third Sunday along with the others. When I questioned why he let Charles but wouldn't let me, he said its a religious belief of his, you know how the Muslems are. I'm like no I don't I'm not one. But why is it that with him its a religious belief and with me it doesn't count? That makes no sense to me. Anyway I work for the Catholics now, at a hospital supported by the Sisters Of The Sorrowful Mother supported by the Church. They are really good to us, its been a good 10 months or so that I've been here and just can't see myself doing what I do now for any other hospital. They've spoiled me. I've never transported a single patient other than taking some diehard emergencies directly from the ICU's. Its only fourteen stories, and since the cafeteria is right down the hall fro, the Heart Cath Lab, I've never been in any other part of the hospital! HAHAHA! At the other one, I transported my own patients everyday!http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/mad.gif That sucked, but I knew my way around that hospital. This one, I can tell you where the gift shop and the cafeteria are! Pretty sad for working there 10 months now! It sucks when I see family members in the hall as i'm on the way to the cafeteria cause if they ain't going to the vending machines or the elevators, they better not ask me cause I don't have a clue! I've been to the ICU's 4 or 5 times and I can't tell you what floor they are on! The sisters pay to have our own orderlies on call with us. That is nice. We do emergencies and all we have to worry about is getting everything ready while they get the patient. Yeah, I definitely like the Catholics!

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Eat Us And Smile!

It's Showtime!

The Innovator Of Violence!

powerbiltkh
05.04.00, 08:41 PM
I am a Christian also and the respect shown in all replies here has been very fresh and uplifting, wish that type of respect was a bit more common in other areas here. Again, thanks for the courtesy and the respect for everyone.

Kerry

Rick S
05.04.00, 09:28 PM
as i said before it s just a song its not law it s only one person s opinion..anyway i always felt sammy was saying if i want to do something and mess up its my guilt ill bear im willing to take that chance....

MacMake
05.05.00, 04:18 AM
1. Great subject VH fan if lizard sings

Ive allways percieved the song as a dialogue. At some parts Sammy is questioning actions of someone and at some parts he is speaking with someone elses mouth. The other person is thinking of committing a suicide and asking for forgiveness from God:

SH: Is it right, to take the easy way, close your eyes?

Other person: I get down on my knees and pray, now Im saved by a higher voice

SH: Giving up, giving up, giving up your choise

I understand the giving up as giving up from the choise hes got: to live or to kill himself. And hes slipping to the worst of them two: he is giving all the love God has given him up and instead ending up killing himself.

Stuff No More
05.05.00, 07:52 AM
I don't want to get too deep into religious philosophies here since it usually only causes trouble, but I'll point out a little responce to houseofpain as to why as a Catholic the whole "bear the cross" thing doesn't bug me.

For starters I was always told growing up that while we can prove Jesus was crucified and had to "bear the cross," the cross in that case was being used by the evangelists that wrote the gospels as more than a plank of wood that got nailed up. The Cross was always taught to be some burden someone has to bear to do the right thing and become a better person on the road to salvation.

So with Jesus, his cross was the sins of the world, something he held unto death and back to life. But everyone has a cross to bear in their life. Eddie's cross was his crippling alcoholism, something he bears every day until the end of his life. In Don't Tell Me the character Sammy is talking about/as has a much different cross, one that would make him contemplate killing himself. In Judgement Day the cross is just the life the character has chosen to live.

Now I'll agree with you that the Bible gets pretty specific sometimes about things. And by no means am I advocating that "John" was wrong when he wrote those lines http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/biggrin.gif But also you have to remember two things when quoting - 1. The author had an agenda and, though inspired by God, his words suit his agenda and 2. John is a book written in very literary and figurative language, not unlike the apocalypses in the bible (Daniel, Revelation, etc), and as a result sometimes things are VERY hard to get a real meaning from. So, to get to the point, the quote about the only way to heaven being through "the Father" can be taken a number of ways along the lines of, "Just what is considered through the Father?" Basically it boils down to the deep question, "Is it better to believe in God and Jesus Christ or to be an athiest that lives a good life like Christianity tells us to?"

There's something to think about http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/eek.gif

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"That's How it Is When You Tell the Truth"
Up Front Fanatic

redfire
05.05.00, 09:25 AM
When Sammy makes religious references, and he does it often, you can look at it anyway you want.

I look at it like the way he says it and the way it goes with my belief. When he says he wants to bear the cross, I take offense to it. To me that's saying I can carry the cross, I can bear the sins of everyone in the world. That's just me.

I think when he says "Is it right to take the easy way. Close your eyes, get on your knees and pray." He is saying if you get saved you are taking the easy way out. The reasoning behind that is ... if like the song says "If I'm right, ya your gonna hear about it." than it doesn't matter if your saved. But like he says "If I'm wrong than I'll pay for it." if being saved is what you have to do to get ino Heaven than he's screwed. That, the being saved part, to him, IMO, is the "easy way". Because, going with my opinion of the lyrics, if you get saved and nothing happens, than it doesn't mean anything but if your saved and God returns than only those who weren't saved, those who stuck with their beliefs, are going to be screwed.

This is a difficult discussion and I think we have handled it with grace and respect toward everyone's beliefs. Kudos to everyone.

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Eat Us And Smile!

Cause you can't get this stuff no more.

It's Showtime!

I feel like a running politician. Just trying to please you all the time.

[This message has been edited by redfire (edited May 05, 2000 at 10:31 AM).]

Stuff No More
05.05.00, 11:06 AM
Well man, I suppose ultimately no matter what they meant with the song, it boils down to what you get out of it.

And man, it's a shame you have to be bothered by them, because it's never cool to hear something in a song that offends you.

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"That's How it Is When You Tell the Truth"
Up Front Fanatic

phast
05.05.00, 11:42 AM
I speculate that this song is about more of suicide and life decision. If you put the whole song in a context of a person continplating suicide it makes alot of sense. THe referrences to love make me believe the person who is contiplating suicide has just lost someone he /she loves whether it is by death or a breakup.The easy way to me meaning suicide, and the it's ok I do what i want referring to a humans right to freewill and what you can do what you want to do. The song offers no conclusion just an arousal of thought. I don't find this song anti religious at all, but I have my own beliefs being that I was raised in a christian home and I went to church for years until I was 17 and I had a falling out with the church I was a member and I have not been a member of an organized religion since. I have a major problem with organized religion myself and hypocrocy. They preached this and that and this and that and then when I had a problem they were nowhere to be found they were just as mad as me as I was at them. I was even the president of my youth group and I was on the church board,so I know a little about the christian religion. I have since took what I was taught and made my own little christian religion that I hold to and don't waiver on. But the song does sound like it is about suicide and contiplating with this and just about everyone who has gone through a rough time has contiplated this ending and maybe these are some of the thoughts that may goes through their mind. The person described in the song is obviously in torment and the music even reflects that. Suicide in the christian relm is frowned upon highly and maybe that is where all the references stem from. The Christian belief is probable the reason our culture looks at suicide as a very bad thing. But in other cultures suicide is the only way to make right what you have done wrong and save honor. I like the song it evokes thought and I think that is what it was meant to do. But hell what do I know

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IS IT VAN ROTH? OR VAN HAGAR? OR VAN CHERONE? NO MOTHERFUCKER IT IS VAN HALEN!!!!

redfire
05.05.00, 12:15 PM
Well atleast your opinion is based off something you believe in.

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Eat Us And Smile!

Cause you can't get this stuff no more.

It's Showtime!

I feel like a running politician. Just trying to please you all the time.

z28girl
05.05.00, 02:02 PM
I always took this song as a very angry statement. Thinking in terms of Kurt Cobain's death and now knowing that Sammy was going through a divorce, it's easy to pick out how he must have felt that faith wasn't easy to come by, that he needed something more concrete to go by than prayer. And the hard thing about suicide is that the people left behind, whether you know the person or not, are left wondering whether he or she is better off now, does the pain and suffering, as your faith teaches you, relieved through death. I think there was a tangle of messages that can be applied every which way in this song. Maybe Sammy was arguing more with God. You know, shaking his fist, wanting an answer. I always believe that God speaks to us in many different ways. He is all around us and we have our choices, but in each one, he is there. We just have to look and listen. There is always a reason and you just have to have faith. It's much harder sometimes than others. I know there have been times when I have shaken my fist and asked why, felt I was being punished for no good reason, but through those hard times, when I thought God wasn't there, I discovered that God was there giving me strength to get through it.

VH fan if lizard sings
05.05.00, 05:30 PM
stuff no more... good point... it is a shame to hear a song and get bothered by it... but it happens... i mean, van halen's my favorite band... no other band can strike a chord in me like them... but there are a few songs by them, i won't sing... or listen to for the most part... don't tell me is one of them... (actually, i like that song a lot, but it's just that one big line that i don't)... the part in hot for teacher where he says, "maybe i should go to hell..." even though it's just a simple little song lyric, i won't sing that part... i just stop and pick up with, "teacher needs to see me after school"... and so forth... but, i mean, there are songs out there that offend people, and it shouldnt be like that... i'm certainly not gonna sing to "highway to hell"... haha... sorry, for some reason, i don't consider myself on a highway to hell http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/wink.gif

jimmy
05.05.00, 07:59 PM
I must admit I am not religous at all. I've attended church a few times and find it to be boring and ultimately I am asked for a portion of my salary.

With that established, I am really impressed with everyones opinions about "Don't Tell Me". I had never really disected Sammy's lyrics or even tried to understand what he was saying.

It's safe to say that I had a little "religon" today and it was pretty interesting.

houseofpain
05.06.00, 07:00 AM
Stuff No More, the part that i find offensive is that Sammy doesn't sing about one bearing his cross, he sings I can jump, be the sacrifice, bear the cross just like Jesus Christ. Now can Sammy really bear Jesus's cross?

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Eat Us And Smile!

It's Showtime!

The Innovator Of Violence!

redfire
05.06.00, 04:50 PM
VH Fan, that's what I do. When it comes to that part about bearing the cross, I don't sing either.

------------------
Eat Us And Smile!

Cause you can't get this stuff no more.

It's Showtime!

I feel like a running politician. Just trying to please you all the time.

VH fan if lizard sings
05.06.00, 05:58 PM
yeah... that one part in "best of both worlds" where he goes "You don't have to die to go to heaven.. Or hang around to be born again"... i skip over that... man, as a christian, how can i sing that lyric?? haha... you know?? some people (and even maybe christians), might think "but come on, it's just a simple lyric, it's not like you believe it or something"... but still... me no take chance http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif i'm like that on every song but runnin' with the devil... that's a WHOLE song i should listen to, but it's just so daggon good... sometimes i'll be riding down the road belting out, "runnin with the deeeeviiiiilllll".. and i stop and think and am like, "man, this doesnt look good"... haha... oh well...

VH fan if lizard sings
05.06.00, 06:00 PM
shouldnt... not should....

homeunit
05.06.00, 08:11 PM
Isn't it the intent that matters?

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Baluchitherium

MightyVanHalen
05.06.00, 08:22 PM
Since everyone is talking religion heres my take,not on Balance but VH3.I am an Atheist and because of this I found it very hard to like VH3. Is anyone else hear an Atheist and feel the same way?


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Someday, we'll be standin' on top of the world

homeunit
05.06.00, 08:31 PM
I'm not an Atheist, but I most definatly do not believe in the traditional concept of God. I have a multitude of theoretical and moral issues with that. I've studied the existentialists Sartre/hiedegger/&nietchie, and tend to gravitate toward a concept of the here and now.

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Baluchitherium

MightyVanHalen
05.06.00, 08:46 PM
Jimmy: And not only what you said but the church teaches a contempt for earthly life and that to reach some imagined "heaven" is the main goal of life.
And, significantly, the church teaches that this goal can be achieved only as the reward for obedience and meekness. The church threatens the wrath of God and the torment of hell for those who dare to oppose its teaching.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, I respect your opinions but since we're on the topic I thought I would share my viewpoint as well.



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Someday, we'll be standin' on top of the world

[This message has been edited by MightyVanHalen (edited May 06, 2000 at 09:48 PM).]

Lead Synth
05.07.00, 05:18 AM
This topic is amazing!

I am not religious at all, and I live in a small town where EVERYONE goes to church on Sunday. There is a suffocating pressure to be a Christian, simply because it is "cool." Everyone in the "in group" at my school is very involved in their churches and youth groups. They wear their WWJD bracelets and T-shirts and say things like "I'm excited to die." Separation of church and state is violated all the time as well.

Other than the church thing, I am involved in all the "right" activities...not because it's the popular thing to do, but because I enjoy them or happen to be good at them. Sometimes I look around the room when I'm at one of my practices or rehearsals and think to myself, I am the only person here who doesn't believe in God or go to church. I am afraid to talk to the WWJD crowd for fear that I may offend them. I feel VERY out of place.

There are a very precious few of my friends that I can talk to about religion or religious matters without fear of offending them. Other than those friends, and my family, I am very isolated and alone when it comes to religious beliefs.

So when I hear one of Sammy's songs with implications like Best Of Both Worlds, Mine All Mine, The Dream Is Over, Judgement Day, or Don't Tell Me, I embrace it. I find it fascinating and amazing that Sammy has the courage to write songs about this subject when I am afraid to touch it. I think the lyrics to Don't Tell Me are very strong and powerful, but I actually have never thought about them in the way that some of you have mentioned. I think I like the song even more now that I understand the words a little better.

As for VHIII, the words really don't offend me as an atheist. I like the words and I don't feel weird singing them, but sometimes I feel like I'm singing along to something I know nothing about: "Like the dawn of a brand new day/With the power of deity," "Returning home of the prodigal," lines like that are the ones I think I would understand better if I were a religious person.


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http://www.vhvault.com/1989

MightyVanHalen
05.07.00, 06:59 AM
Lead Synth: I know how you feel. Even here in the northeast you'de still be hard pressed to find someone who'll actually admit to being an atheist. If you think about it I can understand why. It's a major decision to come to grip with-there is no god,we are alone. It's a totaly new way of looking at life. I find that ever since I came to that conclusion I have more respect for life and our planet. We have to live every day to our fullest and stop making excuses and making other people or unseen forces the scapegoats for our problems. We must take the responsibilty ourselves to improve ourselves and take care of our planet.


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Someday, we'll be standin' on top of the world

homeunit
05.07.00, 09:22 AM
MVH
Good post

I really find it hard to believe that existence is a product of an explosion (big bang theory), however I find it more tenable then the "In the begining" bit. I am relunctant to rule out the existence of something unknown that may or may not have contributed to our arrival on this planet and its beginings. The point is you or I or anybody doesn't know.

The whole God/god thing is neither provable or refutable, so to assume god does/doesn't exist is a moot point for me.

I could right pages about my problems with the christian inception of God but until I'm asked, I don't feel the need to rant.

I am a Kantian at heart and as a result believe in a universal ethic of right and wrong. This belief in itself assumes or presupposes the possible existence of something more then the here and now.

I believe religion is good for some people and I respect the fact that thats what works for them.

I would love to chat further with anyboby who has a differing opinion. I most certiantly do not want a flame war but an open discusion would be greathttp://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/biggrin.gif

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Baluchitherium

jimmy
05.07.00, 11:10 AM
I've always wanted to learn about "religon" and how the different religions developed over time. Does anybody suggest any books that can shed some light on religon and its history. Something that seperates the fact from fiction.

My son was baptized recently and I was asked to be baptized too, but I refused becuase nobody could really tell me what it meant and how it would be beneficial to me. I only do things that I beleive and understand and nobody could shed any light on the baptisim thing.

It's that sort of thing that I need explanation on.

Any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited May 07, 2000 at 12:13 PM).]

Lead Synth
05.07.00, 05:02 PM
MightyVanHalen and homeunit, good posts....

homeunit, the "you or I or anybody doesn't know" is a good way of looking at it. My way of stating it is, "Who am I to say if there is or isn't a God?" Just because the majority of people believe in an idea, does not necessarily make that idea the truth or correct. After all, everyone used to think the earth was flat.

MVH, about how atheism is a "major decision to come to grips with," that is probably true for many but not so much for me since I have never believed in anything else. I've never consciously changed my mind to come to a decision that "there is no God." It's just the way I've always felt.

In some ways I can say that I've dug myself into a deep hole just by being an atheist, because it makes me really independent.

On one hand, independence is good because it means I can fend for myself, I can do things on my own, I don't need help.

On the other hand, I am terrible at relationships, and I have this thing where I would much rather do something myself than show someone else how to do it. Also, while I assume that going to some kind of Heaven is a goal for most religions, I don't have a similar goal. I know what I want to DO along the way, but I don't know where I want to END UP. I know I need to work towards SOMETHING, but I don't know WHAT.

Whoa...the songwriter in me is starting to kick in...those last sentences almost rhymed and I'm getting that familiar itchy feeling in my hands and feet!!!! woo hoo!

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http://www.vhvault.com/1989

MikeL
05.07.00, 06:47 PM
This thread has been a pleasure to read. I'm an aetheist myself. I was raised as a Lutheran, but found that it had little meaning to me. Becoming an aetheist is a truly amazing experience. The questions that are raised really make you examine what you believe, and why. It's also a very solitary experience for the most part, as opposed to the communal aspect of attending church.

MVH, you're right about experiencing each day to its fullest. That's one of those things that I discovered very early on. If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you'd best put your best foot forward in everything you do.

One thing I truly enjoy doing is discussing issues of faith and religion. I've got some friends that are very devout Christians, and are open to exploring ideas of faith. One thing that's always interested me is how uncomfortable many people seem with their chosen/given religion. It's something they're not willing to discuss, for whatever reason.

Anyway, on to the topic at hand. http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif I think an awful lot of Sammy's songs use metaphors that we're familiar with. Sometimes the easiest way to describe a complex idea is by using one that people already know and understand.

Best Of Both Worlds to me just says that the world can be a better place if we're willing to let it be that way. We don't have to suffer just because we're on Earth.

Mine All Mine is one of my favorite songs. "Stop looking up; start looking in" To me what he's saying is take responsibility for your own life and actions, and discover the meaning within yourself rather than searching for it in the external world.

One thing I've always loved about VH in general, and Sammy in particular, is how positive most of the songs are. Sure, there are some sorrowful ones, but for the most part the songs are happy ones.

The good far outweighs the bad, no matter how you look at it. http://www.vhlinks.com/vhlforum/smilies/biggrin.gif

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-MikeL5150

MightyVanHalen
05.07.00, 07:27 PM
Lead Synth: For me it was a decision I made when I was 17. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, they're the ones who are ranging your doorbell on a Saturday morning.
Some people say it's a legitimate religion,I call it a cult. I didn't get sucked in like alot of other people do.
My dad was in it,my mother still is. I talked my dad out of being a member and it saved his life.
A few years ago my dad came with an illness and needed a blood transfusion,he recieved the transfusion and lived. Had he still been a JW then he would not have been allowed to have a transfusion and he would have surely died. JW do not allow it's members to have blood transfusions because JW claim that it is against the laws of God. If you do recieve a trasfusion then that person is "disfellowshiped" and is told that he/she will not enter God's kindom.

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Someday, we'll be standin' on top of the world

billy007
05.08.00, 04:31 AM
That's the problem with some of these religions that claim to believe in the same God that I do - they add their own spin on God's word. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything even remotely close to not allowing a blood transfusion. I also noticed that when some JW's came to my door, their bible read differently than mine in some of the key passages that define our faith.
I used to have trouble accepting the concept of God, but if I start to question I think of how I've been all around this country and seen a lot of its natural wonders, and also I think about all the different functions within our body that have to take place in such precise fashion and how could all of that happen on accident?

phast
05.08.00, 07:55 AM
The reason some bibles read differently is because of the person who translated it from latin or hebrew into english. I met a man once who could read both latin and hebrew and he translated parts of the bible literally and it was very interesting. He said when a JW would come to his door he would pull out the untranslated bible and compare it with their bible and they did not know what to think of it and would usually walk away with doubts about his own religion. This man was very smart and a nice guy too but anyway I thought I would tell you that. I met this man on one of the many Invisionary Youth Committees I was elected to by my peers in my youth group. The thing was I didn't ask to be elected to it they just made me do it which was fine because I learned some things but when you end up going to church functions 6 out of 7 days a week it and twice on sunday it kind of took some of the fun out of it. I was there alot for a 14 yr old to 17 yr old but if you read my first post you will see I had a falling out and I think this had a little to do with it.

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IS IT VAN ROTH? OR VAN HAGAR? OR VAN CHERONE? NO MOTHERFUCKER IT IS VAN HALEN!!!!

Runnin' with yo mama
05.08.00, 11:49 AM
I'm not trying to offend anyone here but let's be honest:

If anyone hear knows anything about satanism and christianity, Van Halen's first era falls into Satanism. But then so do the lyrics to DONT TELL ME (which I thought was a great departure from the sometimes sappy Hagar trinity lyric). Before all you Christians get into a bind over this and try to ignore it, like you would certain lyrics like "maybe I should go to hell, but then I'm doing well," please read: Being satanic has nothing to do with one rituallistically worshipping the devil like you would the cross, the whole point is to get you away from worshipping GOD.
The way christians see it, if you stop worshipping god your giving in to "satan."
The way non-christian's see it, you stopped worshipping "god" because you:
a) are alway's feeling guilty for your human impulses
b) just wanna have fun, so get off my fuckin' back.
I was so surprized when I first heard the lyrics to DONT TELL ME, such a departure for Hagar, it sounded more like something that Roth would have wrote.

For anyone that has read Anton Levey's "Satanic Bible," I'm sure that you would agree with me that it influenced Roth (after all he did read a lot as a kid). I myself just started reading it and I think it would shock most christian VH listeners on how much the early VH lifestyle mirrors that of a satanist, nothing evil to any normal person. The song RWTD, perfectly sums up the satanic way of living one's life. But here is the Corker: on the last page of the Satanic bible, two words are printed alone: Yankee Rose.

I'm in a hurry, I'll finish this later...

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"You know, there are more people here tonight... than the entire weekend last year, baby." -DLR

MikeL
05.08.00, 01:52 PM
Don't Tell Me wasn't much of a departure for Sammy, and certainly wasn't something that Dave would ever write. Dave doesn't do "socially conscious" rock and roll. That's not a knock on either of them.

As far as Satanism goes, it was just created to be the antithesis of Christianity. I'm fairly familiar with a few of the concepts involved. Early VH is not Satanistic, unless you assume that something that is not directly tied to Christianity is Satanistic. To call it such is simply twisting the lyrics and intent. Which if I'm correct is something a good Satanist isn't allowed to do...

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-MikeL5150

FORD
05.08.00, 03:54 PM
So what's this? "Running With the Devil" must be an endorsement of Satanism now? And of course there's the cover of ALAE. Could it be.......SATAN???

Dave, you damn Devil worshipper!

No seriously though, it's good to see that this thread has taken up 2 pages with no bloodshed. We've already done better with the subject of religion than Ireland or the Middle East can do. I think that's worthy of note.

In the end, I think that Big Guy up there in Heaven is less concerned with whether you call Him God, Jesus, Elohim, Jehova, Allah, Wakan Tanka, (or whatever), and more concerned with how you live your life. Jesus said to 1) Love God and 2) Love your neighbor. Paul ( a guy who used to go around killing the early Christians for fun) wrote a great chapter on how healing, speaking in tongues, preaching and all that other religious stuff is worthless if you don't show love to others. If everybody (even the atheists) tried living be these ideas, the world would be a much better place. And I'm as guilty as anyone of not always doing it.

I think that may be what Sammy is getting at in his lyrics. Sammy has had religious themes pop up in his lyrics since the 70's (This Planet's On Fire) thru his Van Hagar Material (Mine all Mine, 7th seal, Don't Tell Me) up to Sympathy for the Human on Red Voodoo. To me Sammy seems to be questioning the lack of sense in a world where so many claim to follow a spiritual path that's based in peace and love, yet they practice hate. I think that's a question everyone needs to be asking themselves and others. Or just discuss it like mature "humans being" as we're doing here. There should be more of this going on in the world and maybe there would be less killing in the "name of God"

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F.O.R.D. Country (http://www.geocities.com/ford7896)

Eat Us And Smile!!

houseofpain
05.08.00, 06:24 PM
Pretty sweet FORD. This topic is becoming mundane. Not that I care much anymore, but it has become very boring to me to sit back and read all the things that people think of my religion. I've heard them before. Now let me tell everyone this, and I shall depart this thread, I think that all of you guys that have said what what you think my religion is all about, have your views because of your own experiences with it. Now I can appreciate that. I can respect that. However, I refuse to agree with those statements. I think you people have either been given bogus info by some religious figure more interested in his own earthly status than spreading the truth, or as in the case of the former Jehovas Witness, didn't here it from Christians. Yes, I regard JW's as a cult also. Sorry not meaning to offend. I can't take a religion seriously that states only 144,000 people are going to Heaven, and there are more JW's than 144,000. Also, Revelations says that anyone who takes away or adds to the Bible, the inspired word of God, will not be recognized by the Father. Now how many books have the Jehovas Witnesses added? What about the Mormons? They've all added to it. Now I realize that the Catholics will say the same about the King James bible, my response to them in advance is that is why I have an American Standard Catholic Bible as well as my NIV. Sorry guys, this is the way I feel, and I am not coming back to this topic. Jimmy, email me and ask me what you want to, I'll see if I can answer them for you. It may be best if you have a Bible handy when I respond, I'll drop my Email address in the Moderator's Forum.

conmee
05.08.00, 07:04 PM
When I saw the 5150 tour in Las Vegas, of all places, in '86-'87, I remember getting accosted by some new age born again types passing off flyers for salvation and Gideon Bibles because of the words in Best of Both Worlds....

What I want to know, is where the hell were they at when I attended Dio's Last In Line concert?!?!? LOL

And what about Motley Crue, in '83-'84 when they had pentagrams splashed all over the place and were singing Shout At The Devil?!?! LOL

I had a better chance of going to hell I think, at an Ozzy concert v. Van Halen concert....

I'm could argue day and night and wax philosophical about all these religious issues, but it seems a little too high-minded for a rock-n-roll forum. Not that we're all incapable of such intellectual discussions...

What gives?


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Eat Us And Smile!!!

"Broken down and dirty, dressed in rags..."

Conmee

Runnin' with yo mama
05.08.00, 07:21 PM
HouseOpain
What books did Jehovah's wWitnesses add to the bible?

Since they believe in Jesus that makes them Christian as well. And oh yeah, while those 144,000 are in heaven all the other JW's are supposed to inherit the earth, which they are supposed to rebuild into a paradise. Do a little research before you criticize, otherwise you sound just like some "holier than thou" preacher, giving us your sermon of lies.

As for Satan: The whole satanic concept is to do what thou wilt for the earth will still be turning when your gone: there is no heaven or hell, so have fun while your here. In RWTD, Dave is mocking Christianity, by saying hey, I'm gonna do what I want and have fun, so I guess that puts me in league with the devil. Hence the title Runnin with the Devil.

In DONT TELL ME, Sammy speaks of the exact same thing, only he doesn't mention the devil. Being Satanic by its Christian definition means to stray from God ("If you're not with us you're against us"), no actual worshiping of Satan is involved. DONT TELL ME is just the curious human side of Sammy revealed: But Christians see humanity as naturally impure, our impulses controlled by the DEVIL.

So what am I saying?

If you're gonna join or maintain a religious identity, you have to go all the way. What's the point of listening to Van Halen if certain songs make you feel guilty... fuckin' go with your gut! I had to get out of Christianity to get out of the suicidal depression I was in. Many would call that Satanic and to them it would be. I sick of worrying about that stuff. "If I'm wrong then I'll pay for it."


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"You know, there are more people here tonight... than the entire weekend last year, baby." -DLR



[This message has been edited by Runnin' with yo mama (edited May 08, 2000 at 08:46 PM).]

MightyVanHalen
05.08.00, 07:43 PM
Runnin'with you mama: First off,i love your name dude!
And you are right about the JW's. They claim that 144,000 are going to heaven and the rest of the faithfull will inherit the earth.
Here's alittle piece of info that JW's have been kept in the dark about. Charles Taze Russell the founder of the JW's was into the occult.

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Someday, we'll be standin' on top of the world

Runnin' with yo mama
05.08.00, 07:56 PM
Mighty
I was raised in a JW household as well, and I also had to get out of it to save my own life. Like any religion, there was just too much hypocrisy and not enough hard answers for my questions. If I didn't have rock 'n' roll as an outlet, I would probably be the same suicidal kid I was 5 years ago

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"You know, there are more people here tonight... than the entire weekend last year, baby." -DLR

MightyVanHalen
05.10.00, 07:19 PM
RWYM: I've always suspected that quite a few JW's are suicidal.(myself included)
I come from a very abusive,alcoholic family and throw in the fact that I was raised a JW i feel as if,no, I know my childhood was robbed from me by the JW. And throw in the fact that one of the elders in my congregation and my dad's best friend tried to have an affair with my mom. Oh well,that's life. You take your licks and move on.
RWYM- I hope your doing well ,hey and the year is only gonna get better with the return of Van Halen,Roth and roll dude!!

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Someday, we'll be standin' on top of the world

redfire
08.07.00, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Runnin' with yo mama:
HouseOpain
What books did Jehovah's wWitnesses add to the bible?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh lets see. How about......

1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Tobit
Judith
Additions to the Book of Esther
Wisdom of Solomon
Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach
Baruch
Letter of Jeremiah
Prayer of Azariah
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
Prayer of Manasseh
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees
Psalm 151

.... I don't remember seeing these books in any of my bibles.

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Right Now..... you need to Eat Us And Smile!!!

"A good friend of mine used to say, 'This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.' Think about that for a while." Nuke LaLoosh

billy007
08.08.00, 06:40 AM
Some of those books sound like the Apocrypha:

What is the Apocrypha?

The term "apocrypha" was coined by the fifth-century biblical scholar St. Jerome and refers to the biblical books included as part of the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament), but not included in the Hebrew Bible.

Several works ranging from the fourth century B.C.E. to New Testament times are considered apocryphal--including Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Tobit, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, various additions to the Book of Esther (10:4-10), the Book of Daniel (3:24-90;13;14), and the Prayer of Manasseh.

The apocrypha have been variously included and omitted from bibles over the course of the centuries. Protestant churches generally exclude the apocrypha (though the King James version of 1611 included them). The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches include all of the apocrypha (except for the books of Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh), but refer to them as "deuterocanonical" books. In this context, the term "apocrypha" generally refers to writings entirely outside of the biblical canon and not considered inspired (such as the Gospel of Thomas). These same books are referred to by Protestants as the "pseudoepigrapha."
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/apocrypha_exp.html

redfire
08.08.00, 09:27 AM
That's correct Billy

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Right Now..... you need to Eat Us And Smile!!!

"A good friend of mine used to say, 'This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.' Think about that for a while." Nuke LaLoosh

Brett
08.08.00, 09:42 AM
Dave's Jewish, he doesn't believe in the Devil. http://216.10.25.192/vhlforum/smilies/smile.gif

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Webmaster
VHLinks.com - Your Van Halen Internet Resource Guide
http://www.vhlinks.com

Markymark
08.08.00, 10:53 AM
Very interesting comments and insight here. As for me, I come from a religious background where many of you would have a problem with. And that is OK! Also, having a background in logic and epistemology (theories of knowledge), religious belief aka dogma does not stand up well with regards to making sense internally or by corrisponding to what can be known by the senses. In spite of that, I feel that there may be some justification from the argument from religious experience (although that argument is certainly subject to some legitimate criticism). From the argument of religious experience, I find some satisfaction for maintaining religious belief. But, you can bet I keep my mouth shut in church... LOL

With regards to Sammy's Lyrics, it is very hard to determine the meaning of lyrics since they are not overly descriptive. Even from a religious point of view, I do not find them particularly offensive. Afterall, they are not fully developed ideas, just a few words, where they may be interepreted many ways.

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"What is understood don't need to be discussed. 'Aint that right Edward?'" Sammy Hagar, Right Here Right Now

AZ Halen
08.09.00, 04:13 PM
Good points Stuff No More, lets not forget ANYONE can be nailed to a cross! That just makes them a martar to whatever cause! I think the most important thing to remember is, Jesus rose!! Thats the main point of Christianity don't you agree? He died for our sins and then backed up, everything he said/predicted, in a major way. So, I don't take the "bear the cross," etc.. lyrics to seriously. P.S., House of Pain, LOL, I know who you are describing!!! I live in the 2nd largest population of this religion/cult! Nobody has come to my door yet, I'll be waiting!

RAFTER
08.09.00, 06:16 PM
Well, I just think its cool how Sammy pours his heart and his feelings (at the time)into a song and lets us all listen to it. Its kinda like you get to know him.

AbeVanHalen
08.10.00, 03:14 PM
Personally, I was raised Catholic, then grew (or regressed) into Atheism. I can't find the faith that so many others have. But while still a God-fearing Catholic, issues like Lizard's were a prominent fixture in my young thought patterns. When I saw the Exorcist, I thought "wow, I can't believe that this 12 year old girl is going to Hell now that she did that film". I wondered how her parents would allow it, or why SHE'D want to do it. Then it dawned on me: It wasn't real. She wasn't evil, nor was I for watching with such fascination. If I didn't adhere to what she was doing, or adopt is as part of MY religious practice, it wasn't hurting me. We have been given this amazing creative power as human beings; we use it in different ways. From all the religion I have studied (which is a LOT), never did I get the impression that anyone's sanctity was actually threatened by listening to a song with 'objectionable' lyrics--it's when you LIVE OUT what you deem objectionable that you might be in trouble. In other words, when Dave says 'maybe I should go to hell', singing along isn't a one-way ticket out of heaven. I think we've been brought up a little overly sensitive to these sorts of things. Now, if a song offends you in some way, I'm not saying you have to listen to it-that's ludicrous! What I am TRYING to say is that, if the lyrics don't actually ALTER your faith in any way, you aren't sinning; you're simply hearing something you disagree with. Heck, I hear things I disagree with every day--I'm a die-hard Conservative. Listening to Al Gore, or Clinton, or any liberal Democrat doesn't make me a member of their party, it simply makes me MORE AWARE of another point of view. In short, if a song opposes your faith, but yuor faith doesn't budge, you're doing right by yourself. And THAT'S what really matters in life-to be true to yourself, 'cause nobody can take that away from you. (Oh no, I've just introduced politics into a religious thread. Yikes! If there's a hell, I'm goin' there for sure now!) By the way, everyone here's doing a great job with this one. Makes me proud to be a registered member of this bunch!

Markymark
08.11.00, 12:40 AM
AZ Halen, you must live in Phoenix! LOL

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"What is understood don't need to be discussed. 'Aint that right Edward?'" Sammy Hagar, Right Here Right Now

jaybird
08.11.00, 07:46 AM
Back to the original topic thread about Sammy and his questions about religion, there's a great interview in HM magazine from a few years back where Sammy gets into a pretty detailed discussion about his thoughts on Christianity. Good stuff, if you're interested. Check it out in the archives of HMmagazine.com.

Great discussion!

AZ Halen
08.11.00, 03:32 PM
You got it Markymark, actually too close to Mesa! Lots of problems in our community right now with "them." I don't have much of a problem with them though. Many friends in that religion/cult. People have the right to make their own choices.